GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

Oh and the other great thing about oppression Olympics is that telling women they are middle class and therefore clueless is apparently BOOM an argument winner.

Huh?!

And women and Feminist women have picked up on this. Arrgh.

When women spout bollocks about stuff. Oh well she's protected. No idea. Posh school. University. No idea about prevalence of sex offences. Etc.

It's nice to think but no. They are just nasty. Sexist. Saying what will sell. Etc.

Because having some money doesn't do anything to protect you from coercive boyfriends, Street harassment, sexual abuse in the home, sexual assault in clubs bars. Opportunitistic rape by a classmate, work colleague, date, etc etc.

The point of intersectionality is that xyz things mean you get shit. More than one is extra shit.

To position women and girls as privileged is a viewpoint that only someone who doesn't listen and doesn't want to listen could take. IE it's an attitude that reeks of privilege.

' I’ve yet to meet someone in real life who thinks self-ID is a sensible plan. I can only speak for my field (medicine) though.'

I don't bring it up. It has been brought up at work and with family and in the pub and with DH mates.

All except one person thought it was utter bollocks. Because 99.999% of the world knows fine well what male and female are and the differences in bodies and what that means. And see it as totally obvious that males as a group are a risk to females as a group. And are really flabbergasted and pretty pissed off about prison and sport and etc.

'I can’t believe people have the gall to say sex doesn’t matter when sex and biology affect us at every point in our lives.'

YY

It's the exact same attitude as the resentful men I mentioned.

It's just patriarchy in action. Men are given primacy. And as ever plenty of women go along with it.

[quote Cyclops10]@NiceGerbil absolutely. Patriarchy only works because some women also help to prop it up.

It seems ludicrous that people are able to argue that sex doesn’t matter. I earn less than my male counterpart because of my sex. My career stalls because I had to take a break whilst having my children - because biology (dictated by my XX chromosomes) means that it is me and not my male partner who can gestate our children. My sex meant that my parents were looked down upon in our community because they weren’t able to have a male child. My sex means I can’t enter certain places because menstruating females are unclean (and again, I menstruate because of my XX chromosomes). My sex dictates my physiology and anatomy so I’m physically less strong than most males and therefore I’m at more risk from them than they are from me.

I can’t believe people have the gall to say sex doesn’t matter when sex and biology affect us at every point in our lives.

As a side note, I’m a healthcare professional and quite vocal about sex and biology being absolute fact (if biology wasn’t a thing, my profession would be a bit pointless). My colleagues are generally in agreement that whilst we should be kind and accommodating of other people, that does NOT mean trampling over other peoples’ rights and it does NOT mean that there are no fundamental differences between a male and female person. I’ve yet to meet someone in real life who thinks self-ID is a sensible plan. I can only speak for my field (medicine) though.[/quote]
Well said both of you.

I got involved in our local women’s group because I’m fed up with women’s needs and rights being sidelined by men and some women who don’t just ignore the issues but treat our concerns with contempt.
The fact that the co leader of Scottish Greens thought it was a good idea to support the wee shit who treated Marion and my other friends in Doctors is disgusting, proof yet again that most of the politicians in Scotland are fucking numpties

I have just reported this tweet. I cannot believe this was allowed:

twitter.com/mebisdead/status/1331796957908660224

@KimikosNightmare

My sex means I can’t enter certain places because menstruating females are unclean

Presumably you can't enter certain places because of offensive and irrational religious beliefs- why would you give this the time of day?

Is that a serious question?

I'm often amazed by how little knowledge or understanding so many people have of anyone who is in a different situation.

What is that last tweet supposed to mean?

I don't get it.

Sorry, was that my tweet NiceGerbil? This is an old tweet from the trans-du-jour at the Edinburgh pub we're discussing. It is not misogynistic, it is anti-semitic. I know it's a derail but I was shocked by it. Maybe it says something about Meb's character? Apologies again.

Yes I get that it's anti-Semitic (and misogynistic) but I don't get it.

I tried googling but all I got was a board of men joking about 'bewbs' of different types of women. And a load of porn.

All I can think is it's saying Jewish women are fat? Or all have big boobs?

I'm baffled.

I've never heard either of those things before as anti Semitic standard things. It doesn't make sense?

I live in an area with a large Jewish population and talking to friends at school and later. I've never heard that one before :/

I think they were replying to someone. I don't think it can make sense if you don't know what the question was.

CharlieParley

''This is where we reach an impasse. Because what you are calling 'males' I consider women.

So you think that women are both male and female? Can I ask then, what is your category word for adult females of the human species? For foxes it's vixen, for pigs it's sow, for horses it's mare. What do we call adult human females when we need to distinguish them from adult human males?''

Women? Or the term is 'cis' but if that makes your blood boil I'm sure 'biological woman/female' would work.

We have adoptive mums and dads. An adoptive mother and a biological mother are both subsets of 'mother.' Having adoptive mothers doesn't cause the erasure of biological mothers. We don't insist they only refer to themselves as 'adoptive mothers''', they are just 'mothers' - why must it be some huge problem with transwomen? It harms no one to allow them to refer to themselves as female or women. ''

''The idea that women (in the UK? In certain parts of the UK? Globally?) are privileged in society is ridiculous.''

Privileged compared to trans women. You can have children. You are less likely to lose your job as a woman than a transwoman. You won't face a fraction of the abuse and harassment that transwomen are getting. You are less likely to be assaulted. You have easier access to healthcare aimed at you than transwomen have. You are likely to earn more. You are treated as perfectly normal, not a problem, you are not regularly accused of being an autogynephile a danger to women, a pervert, just for existing. Those are all privileges, in comparison with transwomen..

Look, people trawling through Meb's twitter for things to report. To get her banned, as revenge. It's pathetic.

Evidence for all the above claims please.

Considering the very first : transwomen cannot have children is so wrong, I am curious about the rest.

I think what you mean is not that transwomen cannot have children, but that they cannot get pregnant. Women being able to get pregnant is part of what causes them to be oppressed. Transwomen, like other men, certainly can have children.

Ok, Trans Women will never experience the miracle of a life inside them, the most intimate bond between mother and baby, if they want children they will have to adopt (I'm adopted btw - and there's a lot to it most people don't realise) and most mother's preference is for the baby to be a flesh and blood descendent, alongside other biological siblings, something a trans woman will never have. A privilege a cis woman will have.

@BilindaB

CharlieParley

''This is where we reach an impasse. Because what you are calling 'males' I consider women.

So you think that women are both male and female? Can I ask then, what is your category word for adult females of the human species? For foxes it's vixen, for pigs it's sow, for horses it's mare. What do we call adult human females when we need to distinguish them from adult human males?''

Women? Or the term is 'cis' but if that makes your blood boil I'm sure 'biological woman/female' would work.

We have adoptive mums and dads. An adoptive mother and a biological mother are both subsets of 'mother.' Having adoptive mothers doesn't cause the erasure of biological mothers. We don't insist they only refer to themselves as 'adoptive mothers''', they are just 'mothers' - why must it be some huge problem with transwomen? It harms no one to allow them to refer to themselves as female or women. ''

''The idea that women (in the UK? In certain parts of the UK? Globally?) are privileged in society is ridiculous.''

Privileged compared to trans women. You can have children. You are less likely to lose your job as a woman than a transwoman. You won't face a fraction of the abuse and harassment that transwomen are getting. You are less likely to be assaulted. You have easier access to healthcare aimed at you than transwomen have. You are likely to earn more. You are treated as perfectly normal, not a problem, you are not regularly accused of being an autogynephile a danger to women, a pervert, just for existing. Those are all privileges, in comparison with transwomen..

I can't believe you wrote that last paragraph in good faith, I really can't. I am not aware of any evidence from the UK that suggests transpeople are more likely to lose their jobs - but we do know that woman face pregnancy discrimination at work. The statistics on violence against women are so well know that I don't need to repeat. Being trans is one of the safest demographics in the UK. In Edinburgh for example, all you have to do is say a group of middle aged women are making you feel uncomfortable and the polis show up mob-handed! There are even rainbow police cars!

Typically when we use the phrase 'can she have children?' it is understood we are talking about the ability to get pregnant, not also 'would she be able to adopt'

No male can experience giving birth. Some females can't either
Why is a TW inability to do something their body was not designed for a greater loss?
It isn't discrimination it is biology

And some TW openly say they are AGP so what is your point there?

I am not aware of any evidence from the UK that suggests transpeople are more likely to lose their jobs
--

Have you heard of google?

''Transphobia rife among UK employers as 1 in 3 won't hire a transgender person

18th June 2018
Our shocking new report reveals a strong prejudice among UK employers towards transgender workers with 1 in 3 employers admitting they are ‘less likely’ to hire a transgender person and nearly half (43%) unsure if they would recruit a transgender worker.

The survey identified the retail sector as having the highest number (47%) of businesses unlikely to employ a transgender person, followed by IT (45%), leisure and hospitality (35%) and manufacturing (34%). The financial services industry is most open to the idea of hiring transgender workers but with only a third (34%) agreeable to the idea, along with the legal sector (33%) and construction and engineering (25%).Just 3% of the 1,000 employers polled from a cross section of industries, have an equal opportunities policy that openly welcomes transgender people to apply for jobs, and out of the third of employers that would consider hiring a transgender person, just 8% think they should have the same rights to be hired for a job as everyone else. Few feel their workplace is liberal enough to tolerate transgender workers, with only 4% declaring their workplace culture diverse enough for transgender people to ‘fit in’.''

The ability to get pregnant makes someone privileged?

Wow. Just wow. You really do have no idea why women have and need sex based rights at all, do you?

And male persons are a risk to female persons. There is nothing to suggest that a male person who identifies as a woman is less of a risk

@BilindaB
Privileged compared to trans women. You can have children
Wow - that’s pretty offensive! It’s probably transphobic too. And if you look at the accounts of transwidows, I think you’ll find that many middle aged late MTF transitioners have indeed had children.

You are less likely to lose your job as a woman than a transwoman
Source? Sounds like a lie given what generally happens to males vs females in the workplace.

You won't face a fraction of the abuse and harassment that transwomen are getting
Really? Again sounds worryingly like a made up thing. A lie if you will.

You are less likely to be assaulted
OK the stats are so overwhelmingly available to disprove this that this isn’t even a plausible lie.

You have easier access to healthcare aimed at you than transwomen have
Are you suggesting that it’s problematic for the NHS to offer appropriate sex-specific care for people? Prostate-Havers need prostate screening even if they have long hair and whatever clothes they wear.

You are likely to earn more
Lie.

You are treated as perfectly normal, not a problem
Have you been to Scotland lately?

you are not regularly accused of being an autogynephile
Well to be fair that is restricted to males by definition. And the bar manager discussed on this thread self-IDd in those terms (I really don’t buy the hilarious joke claim: when people say what they are you believe them, right?)

a danger to women, a pervert, just for existing. Those are all privileges, in comparison with transwomen

Have you ever listened to the game show The Unbelievable Truth on Radio 4? You’re supposed to put at least one truth among the lies. You forgot to put any true points in your post.

It isn't discrimination it is biology
---

Sigh. I didn't mention discrimination. We are talking about privileges (for want of a less overused word) that cis women have compared to trans women.

@Nellodee

The ability to get pregnant makes someone privileged?

Wow. Just wow. You really do have no idea why women have and need sex based rights at all, do you?

Ask a woman, like my mum, who finds out they cannot have children. She says it was the worst she's ever felt in her life, depressed for months (but then she adopted us and everything was mostly great)