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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

999 replies

cariadlet · 22/08/2021 20:02

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Blibbyblobby · 24/08/2021 20:40

@BilindaB

''Why do you think the only solution is to throw gender non-conforming, or any other at risk, males into the female spaces and make it the females’ problem to sort out?

I mean, considering all the possible male-centred solutions to the problem of male behaviour to other males, why on earth is your immediate reaction “make it the females’ problem to deal with?”

Oh wait, I know. Because you’ve let vested male interests set the terms of the debate for you. They pointed their finger so that’s where you looked.

Open. Your. Eyes. This is one group of males at risk from another group of males. This is not a female problem. You are being conned by the labels into thinking it’s our problem but it’s not.''
-----

This is where we reach an impasse. Because what you are calling 'males' I consider women. They are recognised as women by the law. More women recognize them as women than do not. They consider themselves women - now picture a passing trans woman like Katy Montgomerie, not, say, Eddie Izzard (though some women do look like Eddie Izzard...) - that is to me, and the world, a woman, whatever sex they were born. And they face tremendous hostility on top of the struggle their life has been. I want them to feel welcome. I want everyone to make allowances to make these human beings who have done nothing wrong, feel they belong in this society.

This isn't a fad, it's not going away, the world will have to change. I'd rather it was done with compassion, not ''I'm not giving up an inch for a perverted man in a dress!' You believe your own hype. Most trans people want to live in peace and cause no trouble, while being treated as human beings, not some other, lesser class. I fight for the oppressed and the disadvantaged, and sorry, compared with trans people, we women aren't the oppressed, we're the privileged.

I realise many of you will not be able to accept that, but others do, others will. History moves forward.

Yeah, you have the wrong end of the stick.

Did I say they were not women? Have I ever said trans women are not women? Of course they are. Trans women are male women. That's the definition of a trans woman.

What you miss, the wool that has been pulled over your eyes, is to question why on earth their gender, self-identified and mutable, is more relevant than their sex.

"Woman" is the label that is fooling you. Woman used to be a single sex group and now it is not. And as you say "This isn't a fad, it's not going away, the world will have to change."

And to move forward in this new world, one of the things we need to decide what we do about the Women's things that were formerly single sex.

Gender ideology points at the labels and says "if it's labelled Women from back in the old single-sex days, that must mean it's there for everyone who identifies as a woman now". It wants to fool you into think that's the only way, a forgone conclusion, the logical and moral imperative.

But the label means something different now. The logic could just as well be "it's labelled Women from back in the old single-sex days, that must mean it's supposed to be single sex, we'll change the label to Female".

The fact that isn't even on your radar is not an accident, it's because the terms of this debate have been set by males based on what males want.

I'm sure you know the quote "“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”. That's what this situation feels like to me.

Why do trans women need to flee male facilities? Violent, toxic males.

Why do female people need safe places? Violent, toxic males.

Which group is NOT being made to accept any changes, or examine themselves, or change their own preferences and behaviours in your brave new "world that will have to change"? Violent, toxic males.

TRAs took one look at the real problem and said "fuck it, too bloody hard, we'll take from the females instead".

A question for you. What is your solution for someone like me? I'm female, undoubtably. But I'm not a woman, at least not by the new label. And yet here I am, and I suffer all the same disadvantages, challanges and risks that I did when I was a woman. Because they are nothing to do with being a woman in the mixed-sex gender sense, and everything to so with female. Where is my place in this new world?

So no, this isn't about who gets to be called a woman or not. That's just the glitter and smoke that is being pulled over your eyes so you don't question what's really happening.

This is about whether toxic male behaviour is just accepted as a fact of life, and about whether females exist as a group in their own right.

CharlieParley · 24/08/2021 20:42

This is where we reach an impasse. Because what you are calling 'males' I consider women.

So you think that women are both male and female? Can I ask then, what is your category word for adult females of the human species? For foxes it's vixen, for pigs it's sow, for horses it's mare. What do we call adult human females when we need to distinguish them from adult human males?

They are recognised as women by the law.

Which law? AFAIK, the Gender Recognition Act 2004 only considers males who have a gender recognition certificate to be legally but not biologically female and specifically includes a clause allowing subsequent laws to override its provisions. Which the Equality Act 2010 does. But even the Gender Recognition Act caveats this recognition - for aristocratic titles for instance, a male with a GRC remains male to ensure that no younger brother can leapfrog the transitioned (and legally female) heir.

And the law itself as well as the UK Parliament made clear at the time that the common people are not expected to believe the legal fiction created through a GRC. As private individuals we are under no obligation to accept this.

More women recognize them as women than do not.

Again, please give some sources. We know that the vast majority of people believe this refers to fully transitioned, post-operative, homosexual transsexuals. Even though this group makes up make up less than ten percent of transsexuals, late-onset non-homosexual transsexuals have always been overshadowed by them.

So there's a small number of post-op homosexual transsexuals who many women have traditionally and graciously accepted. Not as actual women, but as good as.

However, when it comes to the vast majority of transgender males, those who have transitioned in middle age as well as those with no intention to do so, few accept them as women.

Which is made clear in the responses when the question is explicitly asked about these males.

They consider themselves women - now picture a passing trans woman like Katy Montgomerie, not, say, Eddie Izzard (though some women do look like Eddie Izzard...) - that is to me, and the world, a woman, whatever sex they were born.

So you're a transmed, eh? Not really a believer in the doctrine of gender identity after all?

You may perceive KM as a woman. I do not. Perception is subjective. Like most survivors of male violence, I am hypervigilant. My lizard brain recognises males as male, no matter what. Especially if they've been through male puberty. I'll not go into detail, because I don't want to discuss an individual. It's just the way it is.

I've talked before about an incident where I was hyper-aware that a man was standing behind me. I hadn't seen him, he hadn't said anything. I still knew it was a man. (Which helped me in that situation). That was my other senses telling me. I've also talked to two blind lassies who shared how uncomfortable all this aggression around identities makes them - lacking visual clues, they rely on their other senses and those senses unerringly tell them what sex someone is. It's not transphobic. It's just the way our brains work. We're hardwired to recognise sex.

And they face tremendous hostility on top of the struggle their life has been.

The trans community is vast. Are you now talking exclusively about homosexual transsexuals?

I want them to feel welcome.

Welcome where? In female-only spaces? Do you wish to make women and girls who are excluded from these spaces if males are included feel welcome too or can they GTF?

I want everyone to make allowances to make these human beings who have done nothing wrong, feel they belong in this society.

What allowances? Specifically?

And do you want to make allowances for women and girls who cannot access mixed-sex provisions, who also have done nothing wrong, to make them feel, they too belong in this society?

BatmansBat · 24/08/2021 20:57

@BilindaB did you read the screenshot from Reddit which Purgatory posted? About the transwoman, pre everything who was very excited about their first session in the girls locker room but a tiny bit concerned they would be getting an erection? Do you think my 12 year old daughter should be in a changing room with a person with a penis who was likely to get an erection from looking at her?

I know you argue that there should be single cubicles, but that is unlikely to happen in a school isn’t it?

ArabellaScott · 24/08/2021 21:02

Bilinda, well done for sticking around and posting without insults and by trying to explain your thinking. It's rare. Smile

I have a question:

This is where we reach an impasse. Because what you are calling 'males' I consider women.

What makes them women? What does a transwoman share with a woman?

Helleofabore · 24/08/2021 21:15

I want them to feel welcome.

Welcome where? In female-only spaces? Do you wish to make women and girls who are excluded from these spaces if males are included feel welcome too or can they GTF?

I suspect the answer here is that some posters fully believe that theirs women can GTF if the arbitrator of passing decrees they pass. Those males can seek protection and the females who need that segregation can just be excluded because they shouldn’t be looking hard enough to know they are looking at a male.

That is the only way I can read such posts. There is no empathy shown for women who can identify those males that will then have to leave or who might be retraumatised (because very few males will pass 100% of the time).

But that is ok apparently. A feminist has decreed it is ok. Those women can just GTF, they are unimportant. Their rights simply don’t count.

Helleofabore · 24/08/2021 21:16

theirs is those.

Artichokeleaves · 24/08/2021 21:22

Those women can just GTF, they are unimportant. Their rights simply don’t count.

This.

Which makes an absolute nonsense of words like 'kind' and 'inclusion' and 'diversity'. Because those values would apply equally to people of both sexes at all times, if true. When they are simply things that are given to male people but not to female people, that's just plain old sexism, if not heading for male supremacism: the belief that male people have value and importance and priority that female people should be subordinate to.

No. I'm not signing up to that.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 24/08/2021 21:25

I want everyone to make allowances to make these human beings who have done nothing wrong, feel they belong in this society

why can't those allowances be made by men? they should treat all males with acceptance regardless of their gender presentation, surely?

WouldBeGood · 24/08/2021 21:30

I think it is wrong to get breasts just to perv over. That’s nothing to do with becoming a woman

BlackForestCake · 24/08/2021 21:37

compared with trans people, we women aren't the oppressed, we're the privileged

I cannot respond to this the way I'd like to because I'd get banned.

But a hypothetical person who said this to me in real life would be told to get to absolute fuck with this misogynist shit.

dyslek · 24/08/2021 21:38

I wonder if you'll get an answer Arabella? I never have.

I would love to know what the thinking behind twaw is, exactly how is a male a woman.

dyslek · 24/08/2021 21:39

I wonder how alll those privillaged women in Afghanistan are doing right now Belinda?

RedDogsBeg · 24/08/2021 21:55

And do you want to make allowances for women and girls who cannot access mixed-sex provisions, who also have done nothing wrong, to make them feel, they too belong in this society?

Blinda and their ilk don't give a flying fuck about them, not when there are men to prioritise and bend over backwards for.

littlbrowndog · 24/08/2021 22:12

@BlackForestCake

compared with trans people, we women aren't the oppressed, we're the privileged

I cannot respond to this the way I'd like to because I'd get banned.

But a hypothetical person who said this to me in real life would be told to get to absolute fuck with this misogynist shit.

Say what us women are the privileged

Eyes boogling out of my head

Just in Scotland today reports that women earn 45% less than men

But who cares. Just women

littlbrowndog · 24/08/2021 22:13

Och belindi. You speak nonsense.

Not a clue about real life for ordinary women

Not a clue

RedDogsBeg · 24/08/2021 22:29

@littlbrowndog

Och belindi. You speak nonsense.

Not a clue about real life for ordinary women

Not a clue

and not a care either littlebrowndog.
RoastChicory · 24/08/2021 22:36

Transwomen are gender non-conforming males. That is a perfectly fine thing to be. I listened to a lecture by Stephen Whittle, who has lobbied for decades for trans people and set up Press for Change.

When Press for Change first started their key demand was to not be discrimated against and protection from harassment. The same as any other civil rights movement. This was all achieved by 2010.

But now that is not enough. The demand is no longer equal treatment, but that we suspend reality. A woman used to be a female body and any personality. Now it is a feminine personality and any body. And organisations are given Stonewall points for dropping the word ‘women’ from their policies and for having males to speak at International Women’s Day.

Transwomen are not adult human females i.e. and so will in some circumstances - prisons, changing rooms, hospital wards - be treated differently than females. They may need special consideration, and so private facilities are a great solution to protect dignity and privacy. But that is no longer enough for transactivists

TheMarzipanDildo · 24/08/2021 22:53

“Thats interesting. How do you know they are all women? Anecdotally ( which is not data ) many are men pretending to be GC women, oh the irony I hear you say.

The issue with your stats is your basic assumption. Why would ten times as many people as follow 'For Women Scotland' be anti trans? The reason I say this is because any person who is anti-trans is probably on twitter. If they are not, its difficult to see how they will have engaged with the ideology.”

Oh what bollocks. I’ve been gender critical (I’m not, and have never been “anti trans”) since my critical faculties developed as a teenager. Long before I knew anything about the current debate. It didn’t take Twitter, which I’m still not on, for me to realise that gender was extremely reductive and designed to keep women “in the kitchen” so to speak. Blue for boys, boys like cars and trains and things that move, boys don’t cry, boys can’t sit still, men need to work. Girls are worse at maths, worse at directions, worse at driving, are nurturing, women are better at raising children. That’s gender, and it’s just one stupid stereotype after another. In reality, the lady brain/ man brain doesn’t exist. Brains are plastic, they mould to the circumstances, experiences and learning of their possessor.

Feminism has been gender critical for pretty much the entirety of its long history. ITS NOT A NEW THING.

(Sorry to add to the derailing of the thread!)

NiceGerbil · 24/08/2021 23:14

Boobs are a big deal with this whole thing and that's very revealing.

In brief. My opinion.

No secret that men and boys in our society are pretty obsessed with breasts.
No secret that for girls when they start growing is when they change from child to sex object etc irrespective of age.
No secret that certain imagery of women's bodies in our society = sex.
No secret that in fact men in general are pretty weird about breasts. They are fascinated but also in some ways can be seen as comedic or obscene. BF is pretty yuck. But seeing breasts when the woman or girl is not planning on them being seen in other situations is awesome.
I mean etc etc.

I remember that old joke that if men had breasts they'd never leave the house.

Anyway.

So for females if non binary breasts need to be bound. Or removed.
Why? Why is non binary a chest with no breasts?

OTOH I've seen loads of stuff with much excitement for males getting breasts. Weird stuff about how they feel when walking about etc. How sexy sexy it is.
Hormones called titty skittles.
All that stuff.

Soooo.

In short.

Woman/ girl boils down to tits. Male gaze. What is a woman? Sexy sexy boobs.

NiceGerbil · 24/08/2021 23:25

Recognise them as?
Or believe that they ARE?

not the same thing at all.

IME everyone notices. And politely pretends not to.
Women may do a little look at each other. A look that we're all familiar with in a variety of situations but apparently men in general have no idea about. Don't even notice. Learnt that a while ago..

Cyclops10 · 24/08/2021 23:37

I’ve been lurking on these threads for quite some time but just wanted to say that the view that women are ‘privileged’ is definitely not very common where I’m from. As an Asian woman, living amongst a predominantly Asian community, trans rights doesn’t even feature on our radar. We’re too busy trying to overcome our racial barriers and (if female) sexist barriers. I’ve mostly seen trans rights discussed amongst people who seem to be more privileged, middle/upper class, liberal and Caucasian background.

Being female is still a ‘handicap’ in my commjnity and it enrages me that our hardwon rights are being trampled over as people don’t realise that in many communities in the UK, females have a much harder time compared to their male counterparts. So to talk about women being ‘privileged’ is a remarkably blinkered statement to make.

NiceGerbil · 24/08/2021 23:50

The only people IRL who whine on about women being 'privileged' are the same ones who whine on about other minority groups getting 'special treatment'. Straight white men.

And they are 'nice' normal family types etc.

There are a LOT of bog standard blokes who harbour a very deep and generally unrecognised resentment about the progress of people who aren't like them.

I was in a D&I meeting once. A gender equality one actually.

The second question (from a woman Hmm) was. With all the D&I activity isn't there a danger that straight white men are being disadvantaged.

The company was about 80% straight white men with a pay gap of over 40%...

NiceGerbil · 25/08/2021 00:03

Then of course there are the men where the resentment is front and centre. And there are organisations and groups that exist to agree that they are right to feel hard done by, penalised. Unfairly treated.

And the ones focused on women as the cause of all their woes. Range from sad to creepy to terrifying to criminal to murderous.

The idea that women (in the UK? In certain parts of the UK? Globally?) are privileged in society is ridiculous.

Luckily the useful and important concepts of intersectionality have been bastardised into Oppression Olympics. With 'rules' that mean straight white educated men with good jobs can 'win'.

NiceGerbil · 25/08/2021 00:09

The other thing that I notice is that those aggrieved men. The ones who have won the jackpot in terms of starting out without obvious large bias against them from society.

Seem to be incapable of empathy.

IME and obv not everyone is like that etc. Those from groups that have had a more difficult time for whatever characteristic or history tend to be pretty empathetic to those from other groups that get shit.

These nice normal men who are being treated so poorly with their good jobs and their wives at home with the kids etc. Seem incapable of it. I mean the ones who whinge. And more than that. Quite aggressive about it. They know it's terrible and they are right. Oh look there's a woman who is a bit of s feminist. I'll corner her at the coffee machine and explain to her why metoo is sexist rubbish and unfair on men...

I've been around a long time and I'm sick of it.

Cyclops10 · 25/08/2021 00:16

@NiceGerbil absolutely. Patriarchy only works because some women also help to prop it up.

It seems ludicrous that people are able to argue that sex doesn’t matter. I earn less than my male counterpart because of my sex. My career stalls because I had to take a break whilst having my children - because biology (dictated by my XX chromosomes) means that it is me and not my male partner who can gestate our children. My sex meant that my parents were looked down upon in our community because they weren’t able to have a male child. My sex means I can’t enter certain places because menstruating females are unclean (and again, I menstruate because of my XX chromosomes). My sex dictates my physiology and anatomy so I’m physically less strong than most males and therefore I’m at more risk from them than they are from me.

I can’t believe people have the gall to say sex doesn’t matter when sex and biology affect us at every point in our lives.

As a side note, I’m a healthcare professional and quite vocal about sex and biology being absolute fact (if biology wasn’t a thing, my profession would be a bit pointless). My colleagues are generally in agreement that whilst we should be kind and accommodating of other people, that does NOT mean trampling over other peoples’ rights and it does NOT mean that there are no fundamental differences between a male and female person. I’ve yet to meet someone in real life who thinks self-ID is a sensible plan. I can only speak for my field (medicine) though.