GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

I can't remember which thread I saw it on but I'm sure someone posted a link which stated that not one transman is/will be housed in the male prison estate. Even if they say they would like to be, it is deemed to be not in the best interest to their safety.

Thats interesting. How do you know they are all women? Anecdotally ( which is not data ) many are men pretending to be GC women, oh the irony I hear you say.

Do you ever truly read what you are responding to, DisgustedofManchester? Take the time to process the argument?

I have taken the number given by BilindaB, your fellow believer in the doctrine of gender identity. We weren't arguing whether these really are women, because that was not BilindaB's argument.

As for your claim that most of the accounts speaking out against the doctrine of gender identity are men pretending to be women, I'm the first person to remind people that on the internet anyone can say they're a dog. But I hope you'll be reassured when I tell you that I attended, helped organise and spoke at several meetings with very many different women across Scotland. I even did the ticket desk and door duty at two events, so I can attest that at least the many hundreds of attendees at these grassroots-organised women's rights meetings were women and not men pretending to be women. They weren't even the same women!

The issue with your stats is your basic assumption. Why would ten times as many people as follow 'For Women Scotland' be anti trans?

Women's rights are not anti-trans. Campaigning to uphold the sex-based rights of women under the Equality Act is not anti-trans. For Women Scotland is not anti-trans. Unless of course you do believe that women's rights are anti-trans?

Anyway, you didn't read the comment properly. BilindaB has presented the number of 2,000 women across the UK in total actively opposing the doctrine of gender identity and its political implications for the rights of women and girls, which BilindaB extrapolated from the figure of 2,000 to 3,000 UK women's Twitter accounts in total tweeting in opposition to the doctrine of gender identity and its political implications for the rights of women and girls. (No, I do not know where BilindaB got that number from. For the sake of argument, I am taking that number at face value.)

Again, I've got to ask if you read the comments properly before replying? I did not extrapolate from the For Women Scotland follower number. I used their follower number to demonstrate a principle about (target) audience response/participation rates. Which is a fairly constant 1 in 100 across many different industries and fields. (That is if you send something marketing- or campaign-related to 100 people, you can expect 1 person to read it. There's more to it than that, of course, because not everyone who reads will respond, but for our purposes 1 in 100 is good enough.)

Taking BilindaB's own figure of 2,000 Twitter accounts actively tweeting in opposition to the doctrine of gender identity, and applying that principle, I arrived at 200,000 Twitter accounts sharing the views of those actively engaged but themselves not sharing their views on Twitter. I did not go into the fact that like many other women I know I decided that it was a better use of my time and energy to take my activism offline and that therefore that silent number on Twitter may well be active in however big or small a way in real life.

Pink News has 250k followers, Stonewall 228k followers. Similarly Buzzfeed LGBTQ, LGBT Foundation 161k. Mermaids 81k... I am guessing the philosophy isnt allowed to work here...

Of course it is. But it's not follower numbers you look at but engagement numbers (likes, comments, retweets). As I explained in my comment, UK Twitter demographics tell us that it represents the views of the well-to-do, well-educated liberal elite, so I would expect those numbers to be high. (As those organisations have huge amounts of funding, paid staff and a longer history, none of which applies to the new grassroots groups, it would not be a fair comparison, but that's beside the point.)

The reason I say this is because any person who is anti-trans is probably on twitter. If they are not, its difficult to see how they will have engaged with the ideology.

Well, a lot to unpack there. As I said in my comment, less than 20% of women are on Twitter. And seeking to uphold women's existing rights under the law isn't anti-trans.

As for where people would otherwise find out about the doctrine of gender identity:

Like many others I know, I first realised something was off when my then 14-year-old tried to wind me up with something he'd been taught at school. He'd been introduced to the doctrine of gender identity, emotive, faith-based assertions taught as fact. And we're a very STEM-focused family. So he applied the critical thinking skills I had actively taught him and had picked up on the unscientific, illogical nature of the ideology. He hadn't fully processed it, but enough that he decided to use it to wind me up.

I was a little taken aback at the seeming nonsense he was spouting, but I thought no further on it until my younger son came home to tell me what "bollocks" they'd taught him at primary school (his word, not mine). At this point I was .

Then in my timeline on Twitter I had all these progressive liberals I was following crowing about how a woman who got beaten up deserved what was coming to her because of her opinions. I'm a freespeecher, so that didn't sit right with my understanding of liberalism. I said so and was told to educate myself.

So I came here, onto Mumsnet, to find out what was going on. Delurked after nearly a decade in order to educate myself. Not too long afterwards, I decided to attend a meeting to find out for myself if the women at these meetings were transphobic, hateful bigots or not.

They were not.

So, I didn't find out on Twitter. It's not the right platform for a nuanced debate anyway. Back then the character limit was 140 and it just wasn't suitable for delving into any issues at depths, analysing papers, discussing methodologies, empirical research and longitudinal studies, statistics, genetics, statutory lawmaking, political process and so on. I found all of that and more on FWR, the Feminism and Women's Rights board here. In particular, I found women versed in feminist theory, something I hadn't engaged with for over 20 years.

What an education I got. From clueless lurker loathe to ever taking political action (again) to women's rights campaigner...

@Waitwhat23

I can't remember which thread I saw it on but I'm sure someone posted a link which stated that not one transman is/will be housed in the male prison estate. Even if they say they would like to be, it is deemed to be not in the best interest to their safety.

Are women locked alone in cells with males who get transferred to the women's estate? If so, why is there a lack of concern for the woman's safety in that instance?

If they are not, its difficult to see how they will have engaged with the ideology.

Interesting that you say that. Because you are quite right. Twitter is one very active place for gender ideology and it IS likely that anyone on twitter would come across that ideology. Plenty of brands are engaging in ‘gender ideological’ virtue signaling for instance.

But as a parent to a teen, that is not where I ‘engaged’ with gender ideology. I think you, as usual, forget just how many young females are fully ‘engaged’ with gender identity. It touches many many aspects of life for everyday people.

Another aspect that is ignored by posters pushing their own agenda.

BlindaB - you seem to be under the illusion that transwomen will have had surgery or hormones. That is a very small minority.

Eddie Izzard is more typical. And yes, I would be very uncomfortable in a communal changing room with them. I can see why they may be uncomfortable in the men’s and maybe a third space would be a good idea.

But this is not what transactivists want - it is all about validation, not safety.

@BilindaB

I'm trying to find solutions. Ok, where do you think trans women who still have a penis should change when they want to go swimming or go to the gym or play sports? With the non-trans men, staring at their breasts and possibly very feminine body? Is that nice? Is it safe?

Why do you think the only solution is to throw gender non-conforming, or any other at risk, males into the female spaces and make it the females’ problem to sort out?

I mean, considering all the possible male-centred solutions to the problem of male behaviour to other males, why on earth is your immediate reaction “make it the females’ problem to deal with?”

Oh wait, I know. Because you’ve let vested male interests set the terms of the debate for you. They pointed their finger so that’s where you looked.

Open. Your. Eyes. This is one group of males at risk from another group of males. This is not a female problem. You are being conned by the labels into thinking it’s our problem but it’s not.

@MargaritaPie

*"matadornetwork.com/abroad/mini-guide-understanding-scottish-slang/

Number 26."*

This isn't going to be something rude is it?

Late to the party here, "michty me" translates roughly as , "oh my goodness". Not rude.

BilindaB
I'm trying to find solutions. Ok, where do you think trans women who still have a penis should change when they want to go swimming or go to the gym or play sports? With the non-trans men, staring at their breasts and possibly very feminine body? Is that nice? Is it safe?

None of this is about safety, otherwise a third, gender neutral option would have been provided aaaages ago.

It's about validation. And, sorry women aren't a service provider.

You’re very patient charlieparley!

Unfortunately, I’ve yet to see disgusted properly engage here, their preferred tactic is one comment per thread.

A pity, really, that we’re not able to have a robust, informative debate with transallies here without posters on that “side” fabricating numbers and making sly asides at non English posters. If I’m supposed to educate myself, I can’t see that helping.

''Why do you think the only solution is to throw gender non-conforming, or any other at risk, males into the female spaces and make it the females’ problem to sort out?

I mean, considering all the possible male-centred solutions to the problem of male behaviour to other males, why on earth is your immediate reaction “make it the females’ problem to deal with?”

Oh wait, I know. Because you’ve let vested male interests set the terms of the debate for you. They pointed their finger so that’s where you looked.

Open. Your. Eyes. This is one group of males at risk from another group of males. This is not a female problem. You are being conned by the labels into thinking it’s our problem but it’s not.''
-----

This is where we reach an impasse. Because what you are calling 'males' I consider women. They are recognised as women by the law. More women recognize them as women than do not. They consider themselves women - now picture a passing trans woman like Katy Montgomerie, not, say, Eddie Izzard (though some women do look like Eddie Izzard...) - that is to me, and the world, a woman, whatever sex they were born. And they face tremendous hostility on top of the struggle their life has been. I want them to feel welcome. I want everyone to make allowances to make these human beings who have done nothing wrong, feel they belong in this society.

This isn't a fad, it's not going away, the world will have to change. I'd rather it was done with compassion, not ''I'm not giving up an inch for a perverted man in a dress!' You believe your own hype. Most trans people want to live in peace and cause no trouble, while being treated as human beings, not some other, lesser class. I fight for the oppressed and the disadvantaged, and sorry, compared with trans people, we women aren't the oppressed, we're the privileged.

I realise many of you will not be able to accept that, but others do, others will. History moves forward.

They consider themselves women - now picture a passing trans woman like Katy Montgomerie, not, say, Eddie Izzard (though some women do look like Eddie Izzard...) - that is to me, and the world, a woman, whatever sex they were born. And they face tremendous hostility on top of the struggle their life has been. I want them to feel welcome. I want everyone to make allowances to make these human beings who have done nothing wrong, feel they belong in this society.

This reads as though you judge and decide which trans women are deserving, based on their looks. Is that what you are saying or is this badly worded?

Also, who you may think is 'passing' on photos on social media, rarely do in real life.

BilindaB
So you think there should be no exceptions at all, no single sex spaces, male bodies in female prisons, hospital wards, rape crisis centres, no right to request a female for personal care or intimate procedures. Meaningless statistics because male and female physiology is totally different and medications react differently. No female only sport risking harm or even death to women
Is this how you see a progressive future?
I see it as regressive

@BilindaB

''Why do you think the only solution is to throw gender non-conforming, or any other at risk, males into the female spaces and make it the females’ problem to sort out?

I mean, considering all the possible male-centred solutions to the problem of male behaviour to other males, why on earth is your immediate reaction “make it the females’ problem to deal with?”

Oh wait, I know. Because you’ve let vested male interests set the terms of the debate for you. They pointed their finger so that’s where you looked.

Open. Your. Eyes. This is one group of males at risk from another group of males. This is not a female problem. You are being conned by the labels into thinking it’s our problem but it’s not.''
-----

This is where we reach an impasse. Because what you are calling 'males' I consider women. They are recognised as women by the law. More women recognize them as women than do not. They consider themselves women - now picture a passing trans woman like Katy Montgomerie, not, say, Eddie Izzard (though some women do look like Eddie Izzard...) - that is to me, and the world, a woman, whatever sex they were born. And they face tremendous hostility on top of the struggle their life has been. I want them to feel welcome. I want everyone to make allowances to make these human beings who have done nothing wrong, feel they belong in this society.

This isn't a fad, it's not going away, the world will have to change. I'd rather it was done with compassion, not ''I'm not giving up an inch for a perverted man in a dress!' You believe your own hype. Most trans people want to live in peace and cause no trouble, while being treated as human beings, not some other, lesser class. I fight for the oppressed and the disadvantaged, and sorry, compared with trans people, we women aren't the oppressed, we're the privileged.

I realise many of you will not be able to accept that, but others do, others will. History moves forward.

And yet you still they should have medical confirmation before they transition! You are an odd one! Maybe you haven't read all the memos yet 🤷‍♀️

This reads as though you judge and decide which trans women are deserving, based on their looks. Is that what you are saying or is this badly worded

Hopefully its badly worded, they are going to say its badly worded anyway as its going to look like a dreadful thing to say otherwise

I fight for the oppressed and the disadvantaged, and sorry, compared with trans people, we women aren't the oppressed, we're the privileged.

Trans people may have at one point been the oppressed and the disadvantaged. They aren't now. Laws and policies are being waved through to their benefit without public consultation and any dissent is screamed down with the chilling effect of 'transphobe!'.

The statements by the Deptford Project show luxury beliefs like you hold as they truly are.

Men aren’t to be trusted around transwomen, so women should allow male-bodied people in their spaces instead. Great logic.

When girls no longer transistion at significantly higher rates than boys then I might believe it's harder being trans than female

But it seems to me many just are trying to escape womanhood

This isn't a fad, it's not going away, the world will have to change. I'd rather it was done with compassion, not ''I'm not giving up an inch for a perverted man in a dress!'

Why is only trans people that deserve compassion?

What about the women caged up with rapists in prison, because ''TWAW''?

What about the women avoiding rape crisis centres because they're not guaranteed to be single sex?

What about women avoiding refuges for the same reason?

The girls refusing to hydrate themselves during the school day, because their toilets are now 'gender neutral' and they're not comfortable sharing with boys?

The girls skipping school completely when they're get their period, missing lessons and damaging their attendance records, all because the school thinks it's fine to force them to share their toilets with boys?

What about Muslim women who can't use the toilets if they're not truly single sex?

What about the women being excluded from their own sports in the name of ''inclusivity''?

The woman who was terrified of men that was locked in a women's psychiatric ward with a ''burly transgender patient who was about 6ft tall and extremely male-bodied'', and called a 'transphobic bigot' because she panicked?

Where's the compassion for them? I'm getting a bit sick of the demands that we need to be kind and compassionate from people who clearly aren't capable of showing us the same.

So no, I won't be kind. Women fought for our rights, our spaces. Trans people and the lobby groups can fight for their own instead of trying to take, take, take from us.

Personally I don't like privilege olympics

Squabbling over who has it worse doesn't fix anything

Refusing to support the needy because someone else may or may not have greater need is bonkers

But trampling over one set of people because you think the other set had it worse is you being a problem

Happy for people to prioritise trans over women's rights , but not happy for people to try to obliterate woman's rights for the supposed trans cause

compared with trans people, we women aren't the oppressed, we're the privileged.

Tell that to the women in Afghanistan,
the baby girls in rural China, the primary aged girls in Somalia, the single parent on the 15th floor of a crumbling block in Tower Hamlets, the families of the 2 women each week murdered by their partner.

Open your eyes. Yours is a view of the privileged

They consider themselves women - now picture a passing trans woman like Katy Montgomerie, not, say, Eddie Izzard (though some women do look like Eddie Izzard...) - that is to me, and the world, a woman, whatever sex they were born.

That comes across as a transphobic statement. You surely cannot expect a subset of the subset of males to receive consideration that other males identifying as women can never receive.

And they face tremendous hostility on top of the struggle their life has been. I want them to feel welcome.

How nice. And the ones that have treated women who disagree with them with hostility? What about one of those you mention who mocks female toilet habits. And the sounds that females make on the toilet. All comfortable with them included as well, to come up with other female habits that they feel are worthy of mocking because they actually cannot hide their misogyny?

I want everyone to make allowances to make these human beings who have done nothing wrong, feel they belong in this society.

Awww. How nice. Of course, just because YOU want people to prioritise this subset of males within the subset, doesn’t mean that your arbitration of who ‘passes’ means that those women who need single sex spaces to be single sex will be comfortable.

Either way, please tell us who would sit on the panel to arbitrate which males get your ticket to enter and who doesn’t.

All sounds rather ill conceived and impossible to regulate. I’ll take ‘sex’ being the segregating factor and expect those males to actually respect that they have been told females need single sex spaces to not include them and keep out. Or the exemption for the EA to be claimed and respected at least. That would be a great start for now.

What we're objecting to is this sort of thing, from today's news. Universally. (And that's "transphobic").

If Bilinda doesn't object as long as the beard is lost and enough eye shadow is used, I think that makes no sense. (And it's also "transphobic").

The "non-transphobic" position is that this is fine and good.

FFS

That's another thing that's worrying, too. The amount of males claiming their ''gender dysphoria'' drove them to commit the most awful crimes.

Such as rape women, abuse children, punch women, smash people in the head with an axe, make bombs, bomb places, smash watermelons with a baseball bat whilst fantasising they're women's heads, download child abuse, breach their Sexual Harm Prevention Orders multiple times...(all real examples, not generalising or made up).

''It weren't me judge, it was the gender dysphoria''.

So many times it's used as an excuse, and women are supposed to welcome these kinds of people into our spaces with open arms?!

Because what you are calling 'males' I consider women.

Woman is defined as Adult Human Female, they are not they are Adult Human Males. You can consider them as you like doesn't alter the facts and doesn't anyone else has to deny reality.

They are recognised as women by the law.

The GRC allows a legal fiction and holders of it to alter their Birth Certificate, no-one else. There have been roughly 4,000 GRCs issued since the Act was brought in in 2004. It is legal for holders of GRCs to be refused access to female only services, therefore, no, the law does not recognise them as women.

More women recognize them as women than do not

Prove it.

They consider themselves women

and?
now picture a passing trans woman like Katy Montgomerie, not, say, Eddie Izzard (though some women do look like Eddie Izzard...) - that is to me, and the world, a woman, whatever sex they were born.

You have seen Katie Montgomery up close and personal have you? You are invoking passing privileges to some TW and not others? That's appalling. Prove that the rest of the world think Katy Montgomerie is an actual woman.

And they face tremendous hostility on top of the struggle their life has been. I want them to feel welcome. I want everyone to make allowances to make these human beings who have done nothing wrong, feel they belong in this society.

The do belong in society, no-one is saying they don't but they belong as TW or TM. As for hostility, they can certainly dish it out I grant you that.

@BilindaB

''Why do you think the only solution is to throw gender non-conforming, or any other at risk, males into the female spaces and make it the females’ problem to sort out?

I mean, considering all the possible male-centred solutions to the problem of male behaviour to other males, why on earth is your immediate reaction “make it the females’ problem to deal with?”

Oh wait, I know. Because you’ve let vested male interests set the terms of the debate for you. They pointed their finger so that’s where you looked.

Open. Your. Eyes. This is one group of males at risk from another group of males. This is not a female problem. You are being conned by the labels into thinking it’s our problem but it’s not.''
-----

This is where we reach an impasse. Because what you are calling 'males' I consider women. They are recognised as women by the law. More women recognize them as women than do not. They consider themselves women - now picture a passing trans woman like Katy Montgomerie, not, say, Eddie Izzard (though some women do look like Eddie Izzard...) - that is to me, and the world, a woman, whatever sex they were born. And they face tremendous hostility on top of the struggle their life has been. I want them to feel welcome. I want everyone to make allowances to make these human beings who have done nothing wrong, feel they belong in this society.

This isn't a fad, it's not going away, the world will have to change. I'd rather it was done with compassion, not ''I'm not giving up an inch for a perverted man in a dress!' You believe your own hype. Most trans people want to live in peace and cause no trouble, while being treated as human beings, not some other, lesser class. I fight for the oppressed and the disadvantaged, and sorry, compared with trans people, we women aren't the oppressed, we're the privileged.

I realise many of you will not be able to accept that, but others do, others will. History moves forward.

You need to read some trans widows' stories.