GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

You’re not very keen on Scots, are you Margarita?

Which I suppose puts your apparent hatred of Marion into some sort of weird context.

I'm trying to find solutions. Ok, where do you think trans women who still have a penis should change when they want to go swimming or go to the gym or play sports? With the non-trans men, staring at their breasts and possibly very feminine body? Is that nice? Is it safe?

realise right now there's nothing to stop a paedo who likes little boys from hanging out in the male changing rooms, having a good old look.

Little boys tend to get change with their parent in the changing room of their parent's sex.

Even assuming you're concern is with paedos who like older boys, why is the solution to let males into female changing rooms?

@BilindaB

I'm trying to find solutions. Ok, where do you think trans women who still have a penis should change when they want to go swimming or go to the gym or play sports? With the non-trans men, staring at their breasts and possibly very feminine body? Is that nice? Is it safe?

The male changing room obviously. If they feel threatened (though to date I don't think any actual assaults have taken place) they can campaign for a third space.

Sorry didn't read your whole post 'very feminine body' WITH A FUCKING PENIS????!!!!!! Now I know you're taking the piss.

BilindaB

They can have a dialogue with management about separate third spaces or using the men's. Up to them. What they cannot do, is colonise the women's and expect me to accept it.

It leads to situations like this.

And trans men, who you say are still women, they have to go into the women's changing rooms? Even though they may pass for men, and may even have a surgically provided penis. What about them?

Yes, I’ll happily campaign for gender neutral changing places alongside male and female facilities for trans people’s comfort and safety.

Now that we’ve cleared that up…you know what I’m going to ask, don’t you, @BilindaB? . C’mon, be a sport, I’ve answered yours, now you do mine! Then we can all get back on topic.

@BilindaB

I'm trying to find solutions. Ok, where do you think trans women who still have a penis should change when they want to go swimming or go to the gym or play sports? With the non-trans men, staring at their breasts and possibly very feminine body? Is that nice? Is it safe?

Many of us are arguing for third spaces, so if you use all the money you want to use to put in cubicles, plus all the lobbying money that’s currently being poured into trying to obtain women’s rights for men, you could very easily afford to create separate, individual user spaces, so that any trans person, or anyone else not happy changing with members of their own sex could use it.

Unfortunately when third spaces are suggested by women because they want to retain their single-sex spaces, men who claim they are women object. Why do you think that might be?

@titchy

Sorry didn't read your whole post 'very feminine body' WITH A FUCKING PENIS????!!!!!! Now I know you're taking the piss.

Google 'very feminine body WITH A PENIS' and see for yourself.

@BilindaB

And trans men, who you say are still women, they have to go into the women's changing rooms? Even though they may pass for men, and may even have a surgically provided penis. What about them?

I can't speak how much men mind sharing their facilities with transmen.

Transmen have the right to use the facilities provided for their sex. If they choose not to use it, and men don't like them in the men's areas, the men need to speak up about it.

P.S. it's not a penis.

@BilindaB

I'm trying to find solutions. Ok, where do you think trans women who still have a penis should change when they want to go swimming or go to the gym or play sports? With the non-trans men, staring at their breasts and possibly very feminine body? Is that nice? Is it safe?

Maybe they could give the 'non trans men' the same advise they did to little girls at Wi-Spa.

"It's rude to stare at people's junk, bigot'' should do it 👍

Google 'very feminine body WITH A PENIS' and see for yourself.

No, thank you

@margheritapie I can't be the only Scot here who is starting to get seriously annoyed at your little digs at our culture and language.

@titchy

Google 'very feminine body WITH A PENIS' and see for yourself.

No, thank you

I ain't gonna Google it either. My hopeful side thinks that it might just come up with Sam Smith though

@BilindaB

I'm trying to find solutions. Ok, where do you think trans women who still have a penis should change when they want to go swimming or go to the gym or play sports? With the non-trans men, staring at their breasts and possibly very feminine body? Is that nice? Is it safe?

Possibly that is a question for the zillions of followers of Pink News and Stonewall to think about. It's not up to women to accept additional risks in single-sex spaces because 'kind' or whatever. That being so, Stonewall can chuck some of its taxpayers' dosh at finding an answer that makes everybody happy - including those pesky women who don't want people like this bar manager in their changing rooms.

''I can't speak how much men mind sharing their facilities with transmen.

Transmen have the right to use the facilities provided for their sex. If they choose not to use it, and men don't like them in the men's areas, the men need to speak up about it.''

Transmen are still women according to those who say 'you can't change sex' ie GCs. So surely they would be in the women's changing areas, not the mens. And whatever you want to call their 'penis' I doubt many of you want your little girls seeing it? Or the commotion every time a trans man who passes for a man goes into a women's changing room and everyone freaks out that there's a man in here.

Jings, crivvens, and help ma boab

Google 'very feminine body WITH A PENIS' and see for yourself.

Don't do this. I'm one of the 1 in 5 women with a twitter account and I once clicked on a trans activist's profile to look at their timeline. I got treated to the sight of an autoplaying video of them in the shower, with their "very feminine body", helicoptering their erect penis.

@BilindaB

''I can't speak how much men mind sharing their facilities with transmen.

Transmen have the right to use the facilities provided for their sex. If they choose not to use it, and men don't like them in the men's areas, the men need to speak up about it.''

Transmen are still women according to those who say 'you can't change sex' ie GCs. So surely they would be in the women's changing areas, not the mens. And whatever you want to call their 'penis' I doubt many of you want your little girls seeing it? Or the commotion every time a trans man who passes for a man goes into a women's changing room and everyone freaks out that there's a man in here.

Hence why I said "Transmen have the right to use the facilities provided for their sex".

I don’t think female transitioners who have taken testosterone and have thus developed significant male secondary sex characteristics necessarily belong in women’s spaces either. Another great reason to create alternative third spaces.

However, the obvious difference here is related to the inequality between the sexes in size and strength, and also the difference in offending rates. A male in a female space is more unnerving to women and presents a much higher risk than a female in a male space would be to men because of that inequality.

This stuff is definitely not what your average person thinks of as being a trans woman!

@AnyOldPrion

I don’t think female transitioners who have taken testosterone and have thus developed significant male secondary sex characteristics necessarily belong in women’s spaces either. Another great reason to create alternative third spaces.

However, the obvious difference here is related to the inequality between the sexes in size and strength, and also the difference in offending rates. A male in a female space is more unnerving to women and presents a much higher risk than a female in a male space would be to men because of that inequality.

This illustrates the lack of symmetry, I think.

Really, if in 2015 when Stonewall changed focus to trans issues they had started to campaign for third spaces to be created this issue would be well in hand to be addressed.

Instead, they didn’t.

I am another reminding some posters that small children have their parents present to cope with potential issues. And often older children as well.

It is bizarre to expect facilities to provide individual cubicles. I have been to gyms and pools in several countries and the facilities tend to be communal and maybe toilets.

People may hate communal change facilities, but they are useful for many people.

And yes, males with ‘feminine bodies’ can teach other males that these are normal and to not stare. Those males are broadening the bandwidth for ‘male’ bodies not female bodies. Also. Why is it female children that need to be the ones taught this to accommodate a male body?

However, the obvious difference here is related to the inequality between the sexes in size and strength, and also the difference in offending rates. A male in a female space is more unnerving to women and presents a much higher risk than a female in a male space would be to men because of that inequality.

Quite. A man is going to find a woman in his space awkward, but not remotely threatening. The only possible threat to him would be a concern of potentially being accused of something inappropriate in that situation.

This is not remotely what the reverse experience for a woman is.