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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

999 replies

cariadlet · 22/08/2021 20:02

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

OP posts:
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RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 24/08/2021 16:01

[quote Waitwhat23]@CharlieParley promise us that you will continue to use your powers for good? Grin fantastic post[/quote]
Here here

RedDogsBeg · 24/08/2021 16:08

And ‘wanting to set her legal team..’ incredibly biased

Yes, how very dare Marion ask someone to remove and retract an out and out lie that seriously defames them and start legal proceedings when they not only fail to do so but double down.

TRAs and their supporters are very quick to hit the button for police and legal action when they feel someone has been mean or said something they don't like but woe betide anyone who does the same to them. Equal treatment, gotta love the TRA version of it.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 24/08/2021 16:14

@CharlieParley - so you are saying that my twitter ramblings are a waste of time? Dammit.

Also, you make an important point. The TRAs operate in a silo. If you are only ever surrounded by people who agree with you, and you insist on #nodebate, then you land up with astonishing levels of bias and poorly considered arguments.

I speak about gender issues at work, I'm an HCP. The initial response from colleagues with their obediant rainbow badge on their lanyard (both of which used to be an infection control risk, but, oh well, perhaps rainbows can't harbour infection) is always an assumption that I need to be educated - I don't.

I'm up to speed with all the issues, I'm confident in my stats because I have done the work of examining them and considering them rather than just accepting what Stonewall say. I've spoken at conferences and asked the awkward questions of clinicians who work at gender clinics - and I've never had a satisfactory answer to them. We don't have evidence to support the current treatment pathway for trans people. I'd love to see a Cochrane Review of the data.

I was told to "go educate yourself" about 5 years ago, and I did. What I read is utterly terrifying. Harm is being done to the trans community by the treatment, or at least, the long term benefits are unclear.

And I didn't read it on twitter.

BettyFilous · 24/08/2021 16:14

@WouldBeGood

Yes, I knew about the do nothing ones, the breasts and penis thing is new to me.

Thanks for answering - trying to keep abreast (sorry😳) of all this

There’s a whole porny animé sub-genre that covers this. For a reasonably limited look-see, try ‘hentai’ on Wikipedia (NSFW). There are a couple of images that convey the genre. No need to look further. DH boggled and we both agreed it can’t be unseen once seen. There are some very odd people out there.
MargaritaPie · 24/08/2021 16:15

"Of course, the judge in the Maya Forstater ruling already confirmed what we know "

I've seen this discussed on Twitter, and I've also seen many cases where other people have been fired from their jobs for alleged transphobia who then say "but the company can't do this to me because of the Maya case?"

Didn't the judge just say something along the lines of that Maya has the right to believe what she wants? The judge didn't say Maya's view is the "correct" one or that transphobia is now allowed.

DisgustedofManchester · 24/08/2021 16:16

@CharlieParley

This really tickles me this idea that Twitter tells us anything about what the majority of UK residents think.

Please forgive me the derail, but this belief is one of the issues we have in this debate - everyone on Twitter agrees with X, therefore X is what everyone thinks.

The latest stats on UK Twitter show that 25 out of a 100 people use Twitter and of those 25 only 10 are female.

So for starters, no more than one in five women use the platform.

Of course, the stats are based on counting accounts. Aside from bot accounts (computers tweeting programmed responses), troll or sock puppet accounts (fake accounts intended to stir up things) and farm accounts (where people are paid to tweet from many different accounts for various reasons, including commercial interests and political lobbying), very many people have more than one account. Including me.

There's often no overlap between the accounts - I had two for different aspects of my life. Like many others, my accounts are dormant. (Ever since I was suspended for pointing out that it was rather self-serving for males to declare that the female sex class cannot be oppressed by the male sex class because sex doesn't exist.)

That was two-and-a-half years ago. Both accounts still exist though. As do hundreds of thousands of other dormant accounts. Many more accounts tweet only rarely.

So the number of unique users who are active on Twitter is probably closer to 1 in 100 of people in the UK and therefore only 1 in 50 women. But I'm amused and feeling generous, so let's go with 1 in 5 women using the platform.

That's still 6.6 million accounts. But BilindaB has determined that only two to three thousand of them could possibly oppose the doctrine of gender identity.

I'd love to know how.

Anyway, the demographics tells us that the 15 to 24 age bracket is overrepresented. They represent 12% of the population but a third of Twitter users. Educated people are also overrepresented. People without qualifications are hugely underrepresented. People with higher incomes are also overrepresented. Working class people are underrepresented. Politically engaged people are overrepresented. People with liberal views are overrepresented.

And so on. Twitter users are not representative of the wider population.

Much more representative are polls done over the last few years which consistently showed that only 1 in 5 people support GRA reform, and in polls where the meaning and consequences of the proposed changes are pointed out (fully intact males using female-only provisions) a majority of men and women reject the notion. Even the Pink News poll showed the same results.

As for BilindaB's claim that follower numbers of grassroots women's rights groups can be discounted as they're probably paid-for fake followers, this is complete nonsense. These groups are funded by thousands of small donations. They publish their accounts. There's no money in the budget for buying followers or likes.

However, you don't have to trust follower numbers alone. A good indicator for genuine engagement are likes, retweet and comments.

BBC Breaking News has the most followers on UK Twitter with 48 million. Their highest engagement number recently was 1 in 2,000. Their average is about 1 in 10,000. But that is an account that only broadcasts.

From my marketing work, I would expect about 1 in 100 followers to interact with an account on any given tweet. (That's an average open-rate for emails as well and politicians as well as political researchers and admins tell us that in their view 1 letter represents at least 100 constituents with the same issue.)

So 1 in 100 then.

Take For Women Scotland's Twitteraccount. Their proportional engagement numbers are much better than those of BBC Breaking News, but that's because they don't just broadcast to Twitter users, they engage with them.

They have 20,000 followers and their best response rate is about 1 in 20. Their average response rate is around 1 in 200. What this means is that their follower numbers are not inflated by accounts that aren't genuine.

So applying this knowledge and taking BelindaB's figures at face value, 2,000 accounts actively engaging on Twitter to oppose the doctrine of gender identity represents about 200,000 users on Twitter who also oppose the doctrine of gender identity. That number doesn't really translate to real life, because believers in the doctrine are overrepresented on Twitter, but at the very least we can speculate that in real life there are more than 200,000 women in the UK who know about and oppose the doctrine of gender identity.

Of course, the judge in the Maya Forstater ruling already confirmed what we know - believing that sex is binary and immutable is a view held by the majority of the people. And if Twitter has given someone the impression that the majority of UK residents think people can change sex and TWAW, then Twitter has given them the wrong impression.

Again, sorry for the derail.

Thats interesting. How do you know they are all women? Anecdotally ( which is not data ) many are men pretending to be GC women, oh the irony I hear you say.

The issue with your stats is your basic assumption. Why would ten times as many people as follow 'For Women Scotland' be anti trans? The reason I say this is because any person who is anti-trans is probably on twitter. If they are not, its difficult to see how they will have engaged with the ideology.

Pink News has 250k followers, Stonewall 228k followers. Similarly Buzzfeed LGBTQ, LGBT Foundation 161k. Mermaids 81k... I am guessing the philosophy isnt allowed to work here...

BilindaB · 24/08/2021 16:17

Many trans people do want surgery, currently the NHS waiting list is many months or even years long and has been for a long time. Doing it privately is too expensive for most people.

And some want to keep why they have down there for a variety of reasons, some plan on surgery some day, and I don't think it's anyone else's business.

Before you say 'but what about female changing rooms with penises in them?' - I say again, cubicles for everyone. It's the obvious answer.

Another argument for private cubicles is that with all the fears of a pervert male saying he's a woman so he can spy on women and girls in changing rooms - you realise right now there's nothing to stop a paedo who likes little boys from hanging out in the male changing rooms, having a good old look. Do we want that to carry on? Does it not matter? Or should we do away with big rooms where strangers get nude together, and install cubices everywhere, not just in some places?

BettyFilous · 24/08/2021 16:24

Before you say 'but what about female changing rooms with penises in them?' - I say again, cubicles for everyone. It's the obvious answer.

Not great for disabled people, people with panic disorder/claustrophobia or parents wrangling small children or carers needing to help someone undress. Also unaffordable for many smaller or not for profit venues and facilities. I get that TRAs are utterly disinterested in anyone’s needs but their own but why should everyone else be inconvenienced because a small group of males can’t hear the word “no”?

Sophoclesthefox · 24/08/2021 16:29

If they are not, its difficult to see how they will have engaged with the ideology

Have you forgotten where you are? Grin

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(Am assuming for comedy purposes that when you say “anti trans” you probably mean gender critical? Maybe you don’t though).

Waitwhat23 · 24/08/2021 16:34

You say 'anti trans', I say 'pro women'.

And no, I don't have a Twitter account.

nauticant · 24/08/2021 16:34

The particular Hentai sub-genre is Futanari BettyFilous:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futanari THIS IS A NSFW WEBPAGE

You might want to avoid googling this term.

Waitwhat23 · 24/08/2021 16:39

@MargaritaPie

"Of course, the judge in the Maya Forstater ruling already confirmed what we know "

I've seen this discussed on Twitter, and I've also seen many cases where other people have been fired from their jobs for alleged transphobia who then say "but the company can't do this to me because of the Maya case?"

Didn't the judge just say something along the lines of that Maya has the right to believe what she wants? The judge didn't say Maya's view is the "correct" one or that transphobia is now allowed.

Which beliefs are protected by the Equality Act 2010?

The Act does not include a definition of belief other than ‘belief means any religious or philosophical belief’ and includes a lack of a particular belief. The courts have developed a definition of belief through the cases they have decided.
A belief need not include faith or worship of a god or gods, but it must affect how a
person lives their life or perceives the world.

For a philosophical belief to be protected under the Act it must:
• be genuinely held
• be a belief and not just an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of
information available
• be about a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour
• attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance, and
be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not incompatible with human dignity and not in conflict with fundamental rights of others. For example, Holocaust denial, or the belief in racial superiority are not protected.

Beliefs such as humanism, pacifism, vegetarianism and the belief in man-made climate change are all protected.

The bit I've bolded is the statement I see most quoted from the Forstater case.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 24/08/2021 16:43

@LazyViper

Amazing to read someone arguing in all seriousness that GC people are a tiny minority and Britain is otherwise made up of TRA ideology supporters.

Blinda, I don’t know how to break it to you, but hardly anyone on earth thinks males with intact bodies should be allowed in women’s single sex spaces. Or sports. Or prisons. Or wards. Hardly anyone.

Please, do go out and take a large sample of ordinary people’s views on the question. Make sure you phrase it correctly. Not the largely irrelevant ‘Should we be kind to dysphoric people and honour their pronoun choice?’, but instead the real issue GC people are campaigning about: ‘95% of transwomen retain their male genitalia and have no intention of seeking surgery. Should these people be allowed to use women’s single sex spaces?’

I am very sure indeed that an overwhelming majority will reply ‘What? Of course not.’ Please do go ahead and prove me wrong.

Quite. My gut also tells me those who agree TWAW and youngsters who believe (and are actively encouraged to believe by parents) they have been born into the wrong body, are possibly not working class.

No stats at all to back this up at all, just a spidey sense thing.

CrossPurposes · 24/08/2021 16:43

@nauticant

The particular Hentai sub-genre is Futanari BettyFilous:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futanari THIS IS A NSFW WEBPAGE

You might want to avoid googling this term.

Michty me.
CuntAmongstThePigeons · 24/08/2021 16:45

I'm not anti trans, what with having a number of fab trans people in my life. I am gc though and I'm also not on twitter. It seems a massive leap to say all "anti trans" women are on twitter. Where are you getting that from.

Everyone I know that is gender critical has generally come to this discussion because of something they've come across in a newspaper, or through their kids school.

RedDogsBeg · 24/08/2021 16:47

Hang on a mo, UK is denounced as T* Island on Twitter because it's full, absolutely full of the T people and yet there are hardly any at all and they are insignificant.

Please, for once TRAs and allies make your bloody minds up.

CharlieParley · 24/08/2021 16:48

@MargaritaPie

"Of course, the judge in the Maya Forstater ruling already confirmed what we know "

I've seen this discussed on Twitter, and I've also seen many cases where other people have been fired from their jobs for alleged transphobia who then say "but the company can't do this to me because of the Maya case?"

Didn't the judge just say something along the lines of that Maya has the right to believe what she wants? The judge didn't say Maya's view is the "correct" one or that transphobia is now allowed.

You missed my point completely. I said the judge confirmed what we already know - believing that sex exists, is binary and immutable is a majority view.

He also said this view forms the basis of 40 years of relevant judiciary findings.

And of course he did not say that transphobia is allowed. That's because it is not transphobic to believe that sex exists, is binary and cannot be changed.

BilindaB · 24/08/2021 16:55

@BettyFilous

Before you say 'but what about female changing rooms with penises in them?' - I say again, cubicles for everyone. It's the obvious answer.

Not great for disabled people, people with panic disorder/claustrophobia or parents wrangling small children or carers needing to help someone undress. Also unaffordable for many smaller or not for profit venues and facilities. I get that TRAs are utterly disinterested in anyone’s needs but their own but why should everyone else be inconvenienced because a small group of males can’t hear the word “no”?

Could you address the second part too please.

''Another argument for private cubicles is that with all the fears of a pervert male saying he's a woman so he can spy on women and girls in changing rooms - you realise right now there's nothing to stop a paedo who likes little boys from hanging out in the male changing rooms, having a good old look. Do we want that to carry on? Does it not matter? Or should we do away with big rooms where strangers get nude together, and install cubices everywhere, not just in some places?''

Sophoclesthefox · 24/08/2021 17:04

Men’s changing rooms aren’t the topic of this thread, though, are they?

As you’re back, bilinda, may I politely ask you, please, one more time, to please tell me, please, where you got the figure of three thousand from.

Please? I’m really interested.

MargaritaPie · 24/08/2021 17:06

"Michty me."

Do what to you?

Sophoclesthefox · 24/08/2021 17:10

@MargaritaPie

"Michty me."

Do what to you?

matadornetwork.com/abroad/mini-guide-understanding-scottish-slang/

Number 26.

You could always Google, if there are words you don’t understand. Or politely ask, rather than (whether accidentally or on purpose), take another opportunity to mock Scots.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 24/08/2021 17:11

Another argument for private cubicles is that with all the fears of a pervert male saying he's a woman so he can spy on women and girls in changing rooms - you realise right now there's nothing to stop a paedo who likes little boys from hanging out in the male changing rooms, having a good old look. Do we want that to carry on? Does it not matter? Or should we do away with big rooms where strangers get nude together, and install cubices everywhere, not just in some places?

I'll address it.

Bilinda, are you sure you have children? It is routine, normal, standard practice for women to take little boys into the women's for reasons that encompass this.

So we don't want post-adolescent males in there, whatever their gender identity. This is not going to change.

MargaritaPie · 24/08/2021 17:13

*"matadornetwork.com/abroad/mini-guide-understanding-scottish-slang/

Number 26."*

This isn't going to be something rude is it?

LazyViper · 24/08/2021 17:18

Thank you @CharlieParley ! Great reference.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 24/08/2021 17:19

This isn't going to be something rude is it?

Ah dinnae ken