GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

yes pubs can chuck people out based on political views

Actually, I don't think they can, though. 'Belief' is a protected characteristic and service providers can't discriminate on that basis.

I mean they can do that and have no requirement to say that's why.

Loads of pubs will bin people on a feeling.

In this case it was obv for this specific reason.

There's a lot going on here tbh.

For loads of us it's very discomforting being seen as the enemy by orgs etc that we used to be at home in.

'10th July 2019, A Woman’s Place is On The Podium, Queen Elizabeth centre, London. I was there, and there were 700 other people there,''

I was there too, those figures are accurate. It was an amazing atmosphere.

Maybe you are right

She isn't. It's just more of the boring fake news tactics.

They can Arabella.

They have no need to give reason. If they do then obv have fucked up and not legal if protected etc

Just had a Google it's a common law thing whatever that means.

Pubs do refuse certain people based on a feeling all the time though

If had not written that stuff on Twitter then fine.

That stuff on Twitter.. not fine.

However. I mean it's easy to get chucked out of a pub.

The leaflets in bogs is enough reason.
Challenging/ arguing with staff is enough reason.

I have spent way way too much time in pubs

It was a great night 😊

I’m recalling all the times I’ve been made uncomfortable by men in pubs (many) and the number of times that bar staff or police have done anything about it (zero). Quite a contrast with our hero in the OP, who seemed to forget their previous opinion of “ACAB” when it comes to disciplining disobedient women

Pubs can’t Chuck people out just cos of a feeling gerbil

They really can’t

I worked in that sector

We have strict guidelines and also we have to pass an exam on this stuff

At no point in my exam was I asked about feelings

We are taught how to defuse violence before it starts

The other day some pubs on the high street put up locals only signs and stood on the door.

Because of a largeish group who arrived in town.

If they had said why then illegal. As long as not say. That's fine.

Pubs have a lot of discretion which can be misused.

However often it's used to bar entry to large groups of rowdy people, to get rid of a creepy man, that sort of thing. Who haven't done anything wrong.. yet.

It's just rarely women having a quiet drink who are on the wrong end of it though.

As bar workers we defuse situations

We don’t add to them gerbil

It’s part of our training

Well defuse/ feelings.

DH worked in pubs round here for years.

Service is quite often refused around here. And not just because of violence. Intimidation. Being too bloody loud. Taking the whole place over and pissing the locals off. Whole bunch of reasons.

I think more of us are starting to feel a little more emboldened to speak out as there is definitely a culture of fear.

In real life only my husband and a very old friend know m feelings - I don’t even share with those I’ve known for over 30 years although I’m pretty certain they feel the same as I do.

I am taking the tiniest baby steps, firstly writing to msp’s but I will take more so I think it is dangerous thinking to assume our numbers are low.

On that note my dh who never ever thought he was a feminist ally, helped me get my ribbons ready to take with me the next time I go out!

I am not an activist just a bog standard middle aged mother, so the fact that I am now prepared to take a tiny stand might indicate the strength of feeling on this.

But we have to do our online training now before we can work in a licensed premises

And a main part of this training is defusing and understanding how violence can escalate and how to stop it escalating

We can lose our licence for not following the guidance

Looking high
Looking dodgy/ rough

I mean loads of things that aren't to do with defusing violence but other stuff.

Maybe it's different round here? Certainly I've seen people who look quite ordinary refused service just.. because

As long as they don't say because you're xyz then that's ok. Well Google tells me it's common law whatever that means. It's certainly a common practice here and always has been.

Our pubs have always been a bit more um. Interesting than you'd expect for the area.

Anyway I digress.

Round here if told need table back had 2 hours. Leaflets without permission. Time to go. Then arguing back. Would result in being kicked out and police called if necessary. Arguing with the staff is game over. Round here. Anyway.

Well yes which is why some pubs refuse some people with no real grounds at all. And they don't have to say.

Told times up + arguing even politely = out. End of story. IME.

That Twitter stuff written now come to light should mean the manager (?) is sacked. Inappropriate. Reason given makes no sense. (I was intimidated so I asked them to leave... Yeah. No).

The person with that bio and who said why they kicked them out and the language, if they keep their job then that's bonkers. What happened to as employee need not to do or say anything that could put company in bad light?

The brewery will have a real headache here.

I'm not saying yay he was right to chuck then out

I'm saying that pubs can and do refuse service and no reason needs to be given.

IF they say on twitter oh it's because of (protected characteristic) then they're fucking stupid and yes that's illegal.

However. Leaflets without permission and arguing WOULD get you chucked out round here.

And I think it's a good thing that pubs have discretion because it means they can refuse service to people before there's any trouble- whether violent or otherwise.

@ArabellaScott

Yes, how did we end up back to bloody toilets?!

Mornington Crescent, the FWR version.

There are laws in licensing. Trust me gerbil. Actual laws

I have received my training and am now licensed to work in licensed premises

At no point in my training did it say. Dodgy person don’t serve

We have to have actual reasons to refuse service and when we refuse service we try not not inflame the situation not make it worse

Its part of our training

Yes, pubs can chuck you out for no reason.

What they can't do is discriminate based on a protected characteristic. In this case sex and maybe sexual orientation. So throwing the women out for being women. Which in effect the bar manager admitted too in the tweets saying the guests were c**ts, which is a sex based slur.

We do have to give reasons gerbil. We do

@Sophoclesthefox

I can’t believe we’re wasting time on this silly distraction.

Back to the topic: is it Ok to call women cunts and have them ejected from public places because they have political views that you disagree with, yes/no?

My answer is No.

While we're here, my answer to the Kavanagh question, "is it ever appropriate to call raped women bigots when you're supposed to be providing care for them?" is also No.

My answer to the Staniland Question is also No.

And my answer to the question "should women be able to request a female medical examiner after rape" is Yes.

The licensing board would look poorly on bars who were just chucking people out for no good reason

You need to have a good reason for refusing service

www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2018/05/18/Legal-Q-A-refusing-entry-and-police-on-the-premises#:~:text=A%3A%20You%20are%20absolutely%20correct,service%20to%20whomever%20you%20choose.

Can't copy and paste from the article linked because it is copyright protected but it could reasonably be deduced that the women in the bar were unlawfully refused service on the grounds of sex and belief. There is a common law right for bar staff to be able to refuse service for any reason but if there was reason to believe that this was done unlawfully, it surely shouldn't be difficult to make a complaint (to the Brewery?) whether the reason was admitted or not.

In any case, this bar manager did admit why he refused service and it's quite clear he acted unlawfully.

(Re: pronouns - the bar manager of Doctors refers to themself as an AGP male so I'm referring to them as male).

@NiceGerbil

I mean they can do that and have no requirement to say that's why.

Loads of pubs will bin people on a feeling.

In this case it was obv for this specific reason.

There's a lot going on here tbh.

For loads of us it's very discomforting being seen as the enemy by orgs etc that we used to be at home in.

Any business can choose who it wants or doesn't want to do business with as long as the reason for refusing is not based on a protected characteristic.

Political beliefs are not a protected characteristic.

Oh, fab, Betty. I had been waiting for just such an occasion!

I'm going to use the regional rules, though, for obvious reasons.