GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

I'm really not sure about that KimikosNightmare:

In the subsequent case of the GMB Union v Henderson, a union employee claimed that he had been discriminated against and harassed on the basis of his “left-wing democratic socialist beliefs”. An employment tribunal decided that Mr Henderson’s beliefs qualified as a philosophical belief and he was therefore protected from discrimination on the basis of such beliefs. Although the matter subsequently went to the EAT, this aspect of the decision was not challenged.

www.springhouselaw.com/knowledge-hub/discrimination-bullying-and-harassment/workplace-brexit-discrimination/

From Religion or belief: a guide to the law by Equality and Human Rights Equality Commission -

'The Act does not include a definition of belief other than ‘belief means any religious or philosophical belief’ and includes a lack of a particular belief. The courts have developed a definition of belief through the cases they have decided.

A belief need not include faith or worship of a god or gods, but it must affect how a
person lives their life or perceives the world.

For a philosophical belief to be protected under the Act it must:

• be genuinely held
• be a belief and not just an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of
information available
• be about a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour
• attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance, and
• be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not incompatible with human dignity and not in conflict with fundamental rights of others. For example, Holocaust denial, or the belief in racial superiority are not protected.

Beliefs such as humanism, pacifism, vegetarianism and the belief in man-made climate change are all protected.

Wasn't this bit 'be worthy of respect in a democratic society' not specifically stated in the Forstater case?

I am saying that the number of GCs in the UK is no more than a couple of thousand people. Which is relevant whenever one of them tries to speak for all women.

I think that you have truly no idea how many women (and men) believe that people with penises have no place whatsoever in female only spaces.

Yes I get all that.

I'm in England maybe different laws?

Certainly it's always been the case here.

Publicans/ bar staff can and do refuse service. No reason needs to be given. Person argues more than a bit. Well in theory police which does happen. Usually any men working in the pub gather in an arms crossed pointed way.

No reason needs to be given.

And that's good. Means they can and do refuse big groups of annoying fuckers, creepy men etc etc

I wish I could find better on Google! It's common law whatever that means

Here's something that meets my understanding

www.popall.co.uk/qanda/the-rules-on-rights-to-refuse-entry.aspx

Another

licensinglaws.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/the-21st-century-right-of-refusal/

We have always had an interesting pub scene so maybe more caution etc

DH and I were reminiscing about when a certain football team came, the pubs would close and shops near the ground would board their windows up.

I mean. It's just normal here.

People are refused pretty frequently. And that's that. No argument.

@Ekofisk

I am saying that the number of GCs in the UK is no more than a couple of thousand people. Which is relevant whenever one of them tries to speak for all women.

I think that you have truly no idea how many women (and men) believe that people with penises have no place whatsoever in female only spaces.

It is estimated that there are 600,000 vegans in the UK. I am bloody sure that vegans are outnumbered by the number of people who think that incarcerated women shouldn't ever have cellmates with penises.

You don't need to give a reason to not give someone a job, but you can be challenged on that decision under the Equality Act 2010 if there are grounds to believe you discriminated against someone because of their protected characteristic.

Two bar staff in Scotland wrote an interesting thread about this incident, they also thought it was high handed and not common practice to throw people out for what it was claimed these women had done.

I am saying that the number of GCs in the UK is no more than a couple of thousand people.

You can say what you like. But it's not true.

Probably depends on area.

Like I said pubs put locals only signs up round here the other day for a reason that was definitely illegal. As long as they don't say that. Then unless obvious nothing to do.

I've never heard of anyone challenging afterwards either. Just seems accepted.

Anyway.

The Twitter person should be sacked for their Twitter bio and posts. This is a public facing role. Just nope.

Arguing with staff here will get you out. And possible barred. End of story.

Just how it is. No one goes to court afaik!

The claim that there are only 3k GC people in the UK made me belly laugh. Thanks Bilinda, you’re a hoot.

😂

'Show some pride in them, you miserable twats!' 😆

🤣 that's brilliant

A couple of thousand out of 60 million.

Hmmm.

Daily mail circulation:

'It had an average daily circulation of 1,134,184 copies in February 2020. Between April 2019 and March 2020 it had an average daily readership of approximately 2.180 million'.

So DM readers are statistically extremely unlikely to think sex is more relevant than internal gender idea in any situation.

Yes?

Whenever I've seen customers refused service without a reason being given, it has always been challenged, very loudly! I've worked in some rough bars and the customers would have challenged refusal of service most strenuously, even given that bar staff have the right to do that. We once said to a group of three customers who were the only people in the bar that we were going to shut a bit early and they utterly refused to leave. Police would have laughed in our faces if we'd called them to get them renoved (and yes, this was in Edinburgh). But 5 police are sent out for this incident?

Google tells me-

16000 exclusive brethren
68000 strong hasidic community Stamford hill

Now I'm guessing that those communities aren't on board with gender > sex.

Admittedly what with the extremely closed nature of those communities (both fairly local to me so know maybe more than many in UK) it's hard to know for sure. But. I'm fairly confident that they know what sex is that it can't be changed. And of course have rules and roles based around that.

Bilinda- unless you have info on those communities (somehow) to show they do in fact go in for sex is not relevant, gender is, and that any member can and will be accepted fully as their declared gender if not the same as their sex then I'd be really interested in it tbh. I mean honestly. Especially the brethren.

If not then that's 80,000+ people who aren't on board with, I'm guessing, giving primacy and total acceptance to gender.

I mean it's no secret that they are pretty hard line on a lot of things tbh. Even with the fact they are both very very closed.

So....

A couple of thousand.

Are you definitely sure?

Waitwhat yeah I think it's area dependent and likely even pub dependent.

Which is fair enough - not a right/ wrong thing just different experiences.

5 police!!! Fucking hell!

Yeah agree about police. I mean theoretical you can call police but like I said. It's generally dealt with in house as it were. It's used as a final threat quite a lot.

Usually they put up a bit of an argument then go. If they get arsey the bar staff and customers start... Getting a bit quiet. Watching. Some larger men might look pointedly. Stand up and wander over arms crossed. That stuff.

For non regular places there's bouncers.

I think I might live somewhere weird

Used to be meat wagons all up the high street chucking out time every weekend. Running battles up and down the road. Ah those were the days. It was exciting spectator stuff. Drug raids all the bloody time.

I dunno. Anyway. I miss those days. It's all a bit dull now really!

Thought this was quite interesting regarding refusal of service because of belief. As much as I dislike the man, a 3 hour interrogation by hostile staff is quite something! www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/staff-scots-hotel-complain-having-24817479

I'm not sure you can claim groups with strict gender roles are gender critical. Trans gender critical almost certainly, but not generally gender critical.

Whereas gender critical beliefs are not especially transgender critical, it's more that we think gender is generally a bad idea for everyone and we would do better putting all that well-meaning effort into (a) removing socially imposed gender constructs for everybody, while (b) dealing with the risks and limitations female people suffer inescapably by having the bodies we do in this society.

As I've said before, do you make everyone stay in their box, do you let people change boxes, or do you get rid of the boxes altogether?

I believe most genderists are reasonable people who want pretty much the same thing as we do. They've just been whipped up into a red mist by the TRA - I don't want to say deliberate lies, but certainly reductive and one sided narrative - to the point they won't listen long enough to find that out.

Used to be meat wagons all up the high street chucking out time every weekend. Running battles up and down the road. Ah those were the days. It was exciting spectator stuff. Drug raids all the bloody time.

One place I worked had a huge plate glass window at the front and club chucking out time was always interesting. Stilletto heels being used as weapons was very common.

@Blibbyblobby

I'm not sure you can claim groups with strict gender roles are gender critical. Trans gender critical almost certainly, but not generally gender critical.

Whereas gender critical beliefs are not especially transgender critical, it's more that we think gender is generally a bad idea for everyone and we would do better putting all that well-meaning effort into (a) removing socially imposed gender constructs for everybody, while (b) dealing with the risks and limitations female people suffer inescapably by having the bodies we do in this society.

As I've said before, do you make everyone stay in their box, do you let people change boxes, or do you get rid of the boxes altogether?

I believe most genderists are reasonable people who want pretty much the same thing as we do. They've just been whipped up into a red mist by the TRA - I don't want to say deliberate lies, but certainly reductive and one sided narrative - to the point they won't listen long enough to find that out.

Which is why I was pretty careful to say they were not on board with ideas like internal gender > sex, women can have penises.

And tbh if bilinda is more concerned with their estimate of a couple of thousand 'GC' people (women?) than the vast vast numbers of people who simply think it's bollocks.

Then they're fighting the wrong people surely.

Winning the hearts and minds of the general men and women in the UK surely must be more of a priority than focusing on a bunch of mainly middle aged mainly lefty probably feminist women who in general are a group no one listens to much anyway.

@Waitwhat23

Used to be meat wagons all up the high street chucking out time every weekend. Running battles up and down the road. Ah those were the days. It was exciting spectator stuff. Drug raids all the bloody time.

One place I worked had a huge plate glass window at the front and club chucking out time was always interesting. Stilletto heels being used as weapons was very common.

Our area was less stiletto I'd say back then.

Ah those were the days. Pubs let kids in from about 14. All sorts of shenanigans. Still a lot of hard men violent types about. Loads of pubs in a small area all chucking out at once it was mayhem!

I know it's ridiculous but I was young and it was all pretty exciting.

There were lockins as well and a couple of pubs burnt down 'mysteriously'.

Sorry just reminiscing now!