GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

''10th July 2019, A Woman’s Place is On The Podium, Queen Elizabeth centre, London. I was there, and there were 700 other people there,''

That's not 700 people. Less than half that.

BilindaB
I'm not sure what point you are making. No matter how many people you persuade to chant a mantra doesn't change reality. Just like changing a sex marker on a birth certificate doesn't actually change your sex
Males and females are not the same no matter how much surgery or how they identify
Do you think woman should not be allowed to name their sex or have distinct rights without male involvement?

Well, then, Bilinda. There are only a couple of dozen women who are involved.

So what?

Might does not equal right.

The rights of the minority also matter. Even those of us who are so pifflingly inconsequential - we are still human beings, with rights and votes.

Blinda do you really believe that in a bog standard local pub after work on a weds. The locals if asked would say yep female penis. Inside feelings more important than body. And men would never lie or exploit this to get access to women/ girls

Is that genuinely what you believe.

Because you are just plain wrong.

@BilindaB

Simply stop speaking for all women - and i won't try to show how few women you speak for.

No-one said all. We said we speak for wome women, including ourselves, and they, and we, matter too.

Let us suppose we are flatmates and there are 5 women in the flat. There is a vacant room. Fred wants to move in. Four of us, including me, are al right with Fred moving in and being our sixth housemate.Youdon't. Do you know what that means? It means Fred doesn't move in, because it is your flat too. The alternative would meanFred'sfeelings were more important that yours in your own space.

Consent is not transferable. You can't tell your current sexual partner that I'll sleep with him/her because you do. Nor can you tell transwomen I'm happy to share a hospital ward with them because you are.

@BilindaB

'What I can do is throw money at the various GC linked cases. It's an act women can do anonymously and without having to worry about things like childcare. Of course the hundreds of thousands of pounds raised will be dismissed as being raised by the religious right which is nonsense of course. But I suppose its easier to make those claims than face reality.'

I've looked at these too. Yes lots of money is raised. But it's usually because of about 400 donors.

I just looked at a couple.

Keira Bell - just over £100,000 from about 3200 people. So about £30 each.

Maya Forstater - £123,000 from about 4600 people. Less than £30 each.

Of course your opinion matters even if it is not widely shared. But as I have said, it rankles every time someone speaks for all women on this issue, and hand waves away poll data that shows it is a minority ideology with a small but very vocal base. And when someone does speak for all women like that, I simply won't weeesht.

@ArabellaScott

The thing is, Bilinda, I don't actually care how many people agree or disagree with me.

I will not stand down while children are being peddled this unscientific, unproven, potentially harmful narrative.

I will not stand down while women face the stripping away of their rights - even if they are unaware of the implications.

I won't stand down and shut up when I am told what words to use, what thoughts to think, when I can and can't ask questions, debate, take part in civil society.

Many women support TWAW, great, fine. Many women don't - I'm here, and fighting, for them, and with them.

This.

Frankly I don't care if I'm the only one. (Or if it's just me and Arabella).

If I see something happening that is wrong, just plain wrong, to female humans and children, I will stand up against it. Not being a sheep.

That's not 700 people. Less than half that

Mate, I was there. They announced the number of attendees, which they would have to know for fire regulations. It was 700. It included some very prominent sports people.

I’ll ask again: where did the figure of three thousand come from, please @BilindaB?

The recent direction this thread has taken reminds me why I think the gender identity ideology will ultimately fail. It has to be sustained with misinformation and misleading people about reality. These characteristics run through the ideology from top to bottom like Blackpool through a stick of rock.

Maybe you are right but still more than your assertion earlier from earlier and I quote: "And 'on the ground' I've never seen more than 100 GCs in the same place."

It’s blatantly obvious to anyone sensible that women do not have penises

'Simply stop speaking for all women - and i won't try to show how few women you speak for.'

What about men? They are half the population. I can promise you the vast majority are not on board with gender > sex etc.

Why the focus on women?

Ok so go to somewhere with lots of ordinary women. Ask if they think it's right to put intact rapists in women's prisons. Or if a boy should be in girls communal changing at school on self ID.

What do you really think they will say?

Ah, Schrodinger's GC activist.

Hordes of the rampaging buggers whipping violent transphobes into a frenzy when self-appointed TRAs are lobbying on behalf of trans people for the very specific privileges they say trans people must have just to feel safe.

But a mere handful of dull middle aged women when it comes to whether GC views have public support.

Very much like her counterpart, Schrodinger's trans woman.

Very very common, you will have shared a toilet or changing room with her without realising.

While at the same time so very very rare that adding her into the female population will have no noticeable impact on any single sex rights and protections.

No Old Crone.

According to Belinda, 400 people donated multiple times under different names. You could not make it up.

It is surprising. Because I am not sure how Belinda accounts for the trans people who also believe that sex is immutable. And that males, however they identify, should not be in female refuges and single sex spaces. Or competing in female sport events.

Haven't read the whole thread, but I did have a look at the YouGov statistics page on where Britain stands on transgender rights, link posted above.

It's very clear from the results of that survey that there's a wide general belief that a 'trans woman' is a person who has been through full, surgical transition.

There seems little recognition here that most are intact. When the questions are rephrased, taking into account whether or not that person has undergone medical and surgical transition, the responses are skewed significantly.

For my part, when it comes to the presence of natal males in spaces where women are naked or otherwise vulnerable, it makes no difference, but others are evidently not of a similar persuasion. I do follow the reasoning that a trans woman will have been through a great deal to get to that stage, and has shown a clear commitment to their acquired 'gender'.

As for Edinburgh, it really has gone down the rabbit hole into arse-about-face land. I don't think I would be eating any form of mushroom whilst there ...

The fact that any large group of men at eg a sporting event will be thousands of people who don't believe gender > sex. Has not been responded to.

@CrossPurposes

Maybe you are right but still more than your assertion earlier from earlier and I quote: "And 'on the ground' I've never seen more than 100 GCs in the same place."

Conceded.

I can’t believe we’re wasting time on this silly distraction.

Back to the topic: is it Ok to call women cunts and have them ejected from public places because they have political views that you disagree with, yes/no?

@NiceGerbil

Twitter is not real life.

In real life. The vast majority of people think penis people going where women/ girls are vulnerable is risky at best and unconscionable at worst.

You can't really believe otherwise?

I totally agree. GB News did a report on this in the light of the Daily Mail's interview with the Surrey PCC, criticising Stonewall. GB News came out and pretty much said that the idea that men could become women is nonsense.

I'm not their target audience (I'm a Guardian reading old lefty) and stumbled across it on twitter.

The comments underneath made for an interesting read. They were virtually unanimous in their dismissal of trans ideology and disbelief that anyone could take it seriously. I think their views are representative of a huge percentage of the population who are busy getting on with their lives, trying to bring up their kids and earn a living and have no idea if what's been going on behind the scenes in so many companies, charities and public institutions.

twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1429571652669607951?s=19

@BilindaB

Of course your opinion matters even if it is not widely shared. But as I have said, it rankles every time someone speaks for all women on this issue, and hand waves away poll data that shows it is a minority ideology with a small but very vocal base. And when someone does speak for all women like that, I simply won't weeesht.

I've never presumed to speak for all women. 'Very vocal' - do you mean women who won't shut up or agree? Or do you mean on this board, this one tiny, hidden corner of the internet?

It's just a handful of us in here, so - why does it bother you? Do you go onto other boards to harangue people about how 'minority' their views are?

From the polls you've shared, it looks like roughly a half and half split, as far as I can see.

But those who are happy to share spaces, groups, etc, are happy with the status quo - they don't need anything to change. All is tickety-boo for them. Great!

So I will continue to speak for the other half of us. Or the half dozen of us. Whatever.

I will always speak up for what I think is right, no matter how many other people disagree. Presumably you feel the same. So - we can agree to disagree, yes?

No.

This whole self stuff at the mo. And saying whatever on SM. Is bizarre.

If his SM was professional. Then anyone can be chucked out. Job done.

There's a good reason pubs can sling anyone out and not have to justify.

The fact in this instance it was for motivations stated on Twitter and with very ??!! stuff about self was where it gets silly.

I would never employ someone who had stuff like that on their bio etc, 'joke' or otherwise.

Most companies would sack you if they found that. Full stop.

But yes pubs can chuck people out based on political views/ making others uncomfy etc. And I think that's fine.

Bog standard middle aged women are not used to being in the firing line with all this.

(Although we weren't always welcome in pubs and in some still aren't!).

@Sophoclesthefox

I can’t believe we’re wasting time on this silly distraction.

Back to the topic: is it Ok to call women cunts and have them ejected from public places because they have political views that you disagree with, yes/no?

thinking

From that Twitter feed -

'Lisa Townsend: "The women who contacted me were shocked that someone was finally listening to them. Some were anonymous – genuinely terrified to put their names to emails because the backlash for speaking out can be brutal."