GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

Well said @RoyalCorgi
Me too.

How are they going to row back?

Same way politicians always do when there's a sea change.

Of course, I personally never thought Nelson Mandela was a terrorist.

Of course, I was always suspicious of Robert Maxwell.

Everyone backed the invasion of X at the time. You voted for it too.

You have to understand that everyone supported XYZ back then. Times were different.

Nobody back in 2021 understood that men weren't women.

In the Times now.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/activist-charged-with-transphobia-kicked-out-of-pub-by-bartender-3wd9zqzpg

@nauticant

For many they're going to have to find someone to blame. They were led astray in some way. For some of those somehow it'll be the fault of those women who were being so noisy and intolerant. The women might have had a point for some of it but they drowned it out in their shrieking.

I’ve said this before but I think the row back will be achieved by effectively taking a route GC people would recognise as GC but expressed in different language than GC arguments have used. So “women” will not be reclaimed for female people, “gender identity” will continue to be a thing and TWAW will continue to be a required belief of left wing / liberal circles, but a new movement will arise to highlight and deal with the sex-based reality that female people face. This new movement won’t be defined or see itself as in opposition to TWAW but as a different and separate thing, a new reaction to a new (or at least newly reframed) social injustice. It will be embraced as progressive.

People and views labelled as TERF will still be considered abhorrent even though the new movement is just what they were trying to highlight all along.

Eventually we get to a good place where social gender constructs have got so blurred they have largely dissolved. Except for the TERFs who are never forgiven.

@ifIwerenotanandroid
Astroterf
V witty! Much needed LOL at the moment.

The worst crime, the most unforgiveable crime, of the "TERFs" will be them being right years before these views became permitted.

It makes me think of this: "A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house."

The Times article is behind a paywall. Anybody got any details of how they framed the incident?

Yes, reprehensible. A good chunk of the population presume 'transitioning' means having a penis removed surgically. Not just 'living as a woman' in terms exactly as vague as they sound.

@nauticant

The worst crime, the most unforgiveable crime, of the "TERFs" will be them being right years before these views became permitted.

It makes me think of this: "A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house."

Honestly, the people whose self image as a teenager or young adult has formed around being on the “right” side of gender ideology will NEVER separate the things GC people actually say and want from the boogeyman TERFs in their heads. It’s just too deeply intertwined with their self image.

Same way that my generation (gen X) continued to call Thatcher an evil witch even as they remortgaged to invest in BTLs.*

(* That is not me commenting either way on her policies, just the observation that once someone becomes a boogeyman, people will project their own idea of “bad thoughts” onto them almost entirely separate from what the real person said or stood for.)

On Radio 4 news now. Not very informative really for casual listeners not up to speed with what all this is actually about.

I am still amused when I see that single slice of the yougov poll posted as if it means anything.

Only someone who is lacking the comprehension skills to read the narrative and to read further questions thinks it proves that women support the mantra. And yet they happily post it as a gotcha. And then women point out the flaws in their ‘gotcha’ and the poster never comes back to acknowledge it.

It is concerning though when the same posters post the same ‘gotcha’. It proves their intentions. And it keeps on proving their lack of critical thinking and ability to disseminate questionnaire results.

[quote GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman]@ifIwerenotanandroid
Astroterf
V witty! Much needed LOL at the moment.[/quote]
Not my joke. Not a joke, in fact - everything I wrote is cr*p I've seen posted seriously on twitter. I was just channelling it.

OK, the ending was my joke

@ArabellaScott

Yes, reprehensible. A good chunk of the population presume 'transitioning' means having a penis removed surgically. Not just 'living as a woman' in terms exactly as vague as they sound.

Yes. This became really clear in a conversation at work today between me, a senior psychiatric nurse and a psychiatrist. All women. They kept referring to “having the op”, etc. No clue.

"People think of transwomen as people who “have a sex change”.

They don’t know that all you have to do now is say you’re a man/woman and that’s it."

Maybe a lot of older people. Younger types like my kids and their contemporaries know better - and they're the ones most supportive of trans people, think they should use the toilets of their their choice, and what we all agree on about changing rooms - cubicles! We'd want them if there were no trans people, sod strangers having a gawp, and we don't want to see them either thanks.

DS is 13 and sees the inequity in sports. He’s also horrified by the “gay people are trans” thing.

I do think the tide is turning

And he gets his info from his peers and TikTok, not me!

@BilindaB

"People think of transwomen as people who “have a sex change”.

They don’t know that all you have to do now is say you’re a man/woman and that’s it."

Maybe a lot of older people. Younger types like my kids and their contemporaries know better - and they're the ones most supportive of trans people, think they should use the toilets of their their choice, and what we all agree on about changing rooms - cubicles! We'd want them if there were no trans people, sod strangers having a gawp, and we don't want to see them either thanks.

Ah right. The magical thinking solution. Adding males to female spaces isn’t a problem as long as we redesign female spaces to mitigate the the presence of males.

All the practical problems of replacing sex with gender go away if you just reorganise society so sex doesn’t have any impact.

Well guess what. Female people have been trying to do that for generations and it’s not stuck yet.

Maybe you think your male women will get more traction than mere females. I think the gender movement will follow the same pattern as all the others which is mobilise female support for the main (ie male) demands but not vice versa. I think you’ll be waiting for those cubicles a long long time.

Mind, when I was your kids’ age I didn’t know any of this. I’d have been utterly convinced the old stereotypes and fallacies were about to get swept away as we entered an era of honesty and acceptance.

You need to have lived through the cycle a few times to see it for what it is.

Younger types like my kids and their contemporaries know better - and they're the ones most supportive of trans people, think they should use the toilets of their their choice, and what we all agree on about changing rooms - cubicles!

Yeah, I used to say this from circa 18 to about 2 years ago. Then I grew out of it.

@MidsomerMurmers Thanks. I've just listened on BBC Sounds. Bit of a non story. It's a shame they didn't mention the bar worker's twitter feed.

In other news, I'd like to congratulate the Edinburgh 16 for being more scary in the pub than ex-paratroopers!

twitter.com/dospeakuplouder/status/1429827984958140419?s=19

@BilindaB

"People think of transwomen as people who “have a sex change”.

They don’t know that all you have to do now is say you’re a man/woman and that’s it."

Maybe a lot of older people. Younger types like my kids and their contemporaries know better - and they're the ones most supportive of trans people, think they should use the toilets of their their choice, and what we all agree on about changing rooms - cubicles! We'd want them if there were no trans people, sod strangers having a gawp, and we don't want to see them either thanks.

Surely that's anecdotal. Coz my kids and their contemporaries think that if you're trans you have gender dysphoria, are homosexual and want to medically transition. And I discussed this with youngsters in two countries and they were quite consistent on that.

When I talk to them about self-id, they don't think that refers to anyone being able to identify as trans but to transsexuals who have not yet fully transitioned and in the meantime identify as the sex they are seeking to emulate.

It was amusing to be fair - talking of "cis white men" and of something being transphobic and at the same time rolling their eyes at the accusation that JKR is transphobic saying yeah, everything is transphobic today.

They also had little time for the non-binary crowd, observing rather cynically that it's always a particular type who goes for that "nonsense".

It's like they can see the underlying warp of the queer tapestry is illogical and unscientific but are distracted by some of the weft seeming substantial enough to hold it all together. Give them a few threads though, to worry at, like their own experiences as teenage girls, or sports, or prisons or the dehumanising language of menstruators and vulva owners and they're starting to pull it all apart.

(Neither they nor their parents believed me that in the UK health boards or government departments are using such humiliating terms just to avoid naming women and girls as women and girls. Point blank refused to believe anyone in an official position could be that offensive. Swore blind it couldn't happen in their country.)

So there we are BilindaB you have your youngsters embracing the doctrine of gender identity and I have my youngsters telling me it's bollocks and no one sane could possibly believe people become the opposite sex by declaring themselves to be the opposite sex.

So your kids are aware that transgenders haven't necessarily had surgery? That was my point.

@BilindaB

So your kids are aware that transgenders haven't necessarily had surgery? That was my point.

These kids believe that transgender people are homosexual transsexuals who are either post-op if they're adults or about to be post-op.

That's less than 1% of the trans community though and they have zero acceptance for people who have not medically transitioned using opposite sex provisions.

DS does not believe people can change sex. And is aware of the difference between sex and gender.

He thinks the sports is unfair. They watch videos on TikTok of trans women beating women easily in things like hurdles.

He’s never felt afraid or watchful just because of his sex. Not has DP.

@BilindaB

"People think of transwomen as people who “have a sex change”.

They don’t know that all you have to do now is say you’re a man/woman and that’s it."

Maybe a lot of older people. Younger types like my kids and their contemporaries know better - and they're the ones most supportive of trans people, think they should use the toilets of their their choice, and what we all agree on about changing rooms - cubicles! We'd want them if there were no trans people, sod strangers having a gawp, and we don't want to see them either thanks.

exactly this. Same with my (young'ish) adult children