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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I think I’m going mad….

358 replies

Iootraw1 · 07/08/2021 21:48

I’ve absolutely had enough of my family bringing up ‘mum’s views’ (which I’ve learnt to keep completely private from them due to previously accusations of bigotry’), and then when I say a single thing in response,, accusing me of being ‘obsessed’ with it and not keeping it to myself!

I feel like I’m going mad. Husband saying he doesn’t know why I’m so obsessed with trans matters and I should keep to myself - I do! I don’t want to share with them because they don’t agree and don’t want to hear it.
Ever since the first time I tried to bring up and got shot down my him and kids I decided I would never mention again and wait for them one day to find out for themselves and be peaked.

But Just once again tonight in response to their accusations (they brought up subject not me) I tried to explain briefly why it opposes women’s rights and homosexual rights and got quickly turned upon. I’ve bought Trans by Helen Joyce now and will just tell them to read it next time (although will no doubt get condemned for buying a ‘transphobic’ book and they will refuse to read it) I feel really down, I can’t even have my own personal opinions and thoughts now without my very own family trying to eek out of me what ‘I really think’ and nose at what I’m looking at over my shoulder (I follow Glinner and Posie and Mars). I’ve bought headphones so they don’t hear it and never share any of it. I have to clear my history in case they search it.

It’s like some weird dystopia we’ve all been forced to enter. I even mentioned the olympics tonight in my defence and they still they said that I imagine all of this and it’s not really happening.

What will it take for they and the general public to wake up and at least listen to women’s concerns? I feel so upset tonight. 😩

OP posts:
FannyCann · 08/08/2021 08:00

OP if you have to clear your browsing history are you using a family computer or do you have your own devices? My cheeky daughter got her finger print on my phone but I deleted it and changed the code. Lots of teens seem to think they have every right to look at Mum's phone "for the pictures" whilst closely guarding their own.
Change passwords and don't let them access your own devices. If it's a family computer....well I'd change the password on that too and make some conditions before revealing it. Or change the password on your wifi. You can grapple some control here!

CrazyNeighbour · 08/08/2021 08:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LolaLouLou · 08/08/2021 08:16

Op. I am sorry that you are having a different time with your kids and your husband. You should be respected for your opinions and your husband should be setting the tone of respect and value..

When I was a child I remember sitting in my granny's kitchen and hearing my mum get really quite cross over granddad's support of Maggie Thatcher. Years later I was furious at my Dad for actively distribute vote leave materials. But, my Dad is my Dad and I love him and I know my mum felt the same and we have managed to bump along despite our different views.

I know some posters will disagree with my next sentence- but the issue isn't with the difference of opinion, it is with the tone and nastiness within the family about it.

Women shouldn't have to hide their reading materials,whether books or online, from their husbands. How have we got here?

1Endeavour2 · 08/08/2021 08:19

This reply has been deleted

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Jorrris · 08/08/2021 08:25

Robin likes to know what women are discussing and correct them when Robin perceives they are wrong. And being critical of gender is problematic for Robin, in light of Robins own position.

I suspect there's many that hover here to see if there's anything that they need to be aware of and challenge if they feels it jeopardises their own self interests.

Which is quite desperate really. 🤷.

ChewtonRoad · 08/08/2021 08:38

Strikes me that your family have a well-developed sense of proportion and you could learn something from them.
What patronising, belittling, and disingenuous bullshit.

Despite some cackhanded efforts by two posters to demonstrate misogyny on this thread...
Women won't wheesht.
No woman is any man's support human.
Courage calls to courage everywhere.
#No thank you.

CrazyNeighbour · 08/08/2021 08:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyOldPrion · 08/08/2021 08:48

This isn’t just about the teenagers though. It’s about the husband. OP says this isn’t a normal dynamic in her family, so it’s odd that it’s cropped up here. What the OP describes contains all the elements of abusive bullying.

Your husband should be telling your children that you have a right to your opinion, OP, even if he disagrees with it. Instead, he is accusing you of obsesssion on the subject and is telling you to be quiet. If he isn’t usually controlling, I’d wonder why it is he feels so strongly about this particular topic. My ex expressed something similar, but more mildly. And he was abusive, on occasion, though by then I had mostly learned to deflect him.

Why do you feel you have to hide your history? Who is looking? If you don’t hide it, what happens? You know you shouldn’t have to feel that way?

I think you have two choices. If you don’t feel able to debate your views, then you should refuse to discuss it. You can state clearly that you are tired of them attacking you for your opinion and ask them to stop. You can explain that their attacks are hurting you and ask them again to stop. Stay polite and stand your ground. Don’t get dragged into defending yourself. Keep on refusing to discuss it. If necessary, walk away. Consider potential consequences if they carry on being disrespectful to you after you have asked them to stop. They need to know that you will not put up with being disrespected in your own house. Rinse and repeat, every single time it arises.

Your husband should be backing you up in this conversation. I would explain to him beforehand that you want these attacks to stop because they are causing you distress. Remind him that you have a right to your own opinion, whether or not anyone else agrees. Ask him to defend you when you politely ask for these attacks to stop. If he refuses, then I’m afraid his behaviour is definitely abusive on this issue, even if not on others.

Should you feel a little more confident in your understanding, then you might feel able to debate this. Note that I said debate, not defend.

This is what you said in your OP:

I tried to explain briefly why it opposes women’s rights and homosexual rights

I would avoid trying to explain. That’s exactly what they are trying to trap you into and then rather than engage the points you have made, this is how you describe their response:

they said that I imagine all of this and it’s not really happening

So this is the definition of gaslighting. You know this is happening, you know you are not imagining it. They are lying and your response ”I think I’m going mad” is the standard feeling for someone who is being bullied in this particular way.

So if you do want to debate this:

They are attacking you in a hostile manner. You need to stop being defensive and start challenging their views. Ask them difficult questions. “Do you think intact men should be moved into women’s prisons?”

If they tell you it’s not happening, tell them calmly that it is and repeat the question. Continue in this line, repeating that it is happening, tell them to read up if they are unaware, repeat your question. Do not get dragged off onto any other point. Do not get into a discussion about the language you are using.

You need to get them to express their opinion which is either “yes, intact men should be in women’s prisons” or “actually mum, maybe you do have a point and if that is happening, it shouldn’t be”.

If they express the former, then I think I’d point out to them that international human rights laws stipulate that women should only be imprisoned with other women and that if they advocate putting men in women’s prisons, they are advocating the removal of women’s human rights. Then refuse to debate further on the grounds that agreement on the topic is obviously impossible.

But you have to be firm in your own mind before you try this. You have to make some decisions and stick to them. They would include refusing to allow them to derail with lies, refusing to allow them to draw you into defending your own position, refusing to modify your language. You need to talk about intact men with testicles and penis and not get distracted or defensive about the language you are using. Keep to YOUR point, which is that you want a direct answer to your question.

Effectively this is a modification of the Stanniland technique, using a question of your choosing. They will try to get off the hook by any means possible because when you really get down to it, moving men into women’s spaces is, at best, a contentious thing to do. They need to own it if that’s what they’re arguing for.

You can, of course, employ tactic one, if you try tactic two and can’t manage. It took me a long time to be able to stand up to my ex and not let him deflect or distract.

I hope this doesn’t break your relationship apart. If your husband refuses to back you in your reasonable request, then you have a significant problem and I think you probably know that. The status quo isn’t good for your mental health, so letting this go on isn’t really a viable option. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

FloralBunting · 08/08/2021 08:48

I think Robin pops onto an FWR thread when Robin is having an existential doubt moment on account of being the legal bod defending Stonewall's bullying of a black lesbian. Sort of like a moment of therapy where Robin can LARP ineffectually as someone who knows what they're talking about.

Jorrris · 08/08/2021 08:50

This reply has been deleted

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somethinginoffensive · 08/08/2021 08:51

If the OP is still about I would recommend,

  1. Make sure you have some privacy online, family members shouldn't be routinely checking your browsing history.
  1. Don't try to hide your opinions, just repeat where your lines are. For me, I don't mind how anyone presents but I am not going to take part in the lie that it's possible to change sex. I am emailing, taking part in consultations etc to make my views heard.
  1. Do get books or films like 1984 or about Maoist China or other authoritarian regimes. Encourage discussion with your children about what makes things true or the difference between respecting others' opinions and being forced to buy into them.

I don't think the approach of never mentioning the topic works as it encourages an unhealthy dynamic.

BatmansBat · 08/08/2021 09:06

Chan is a very complex case for reasons [as described by Glinner ]

That is of course true. As is Yaniv. And many other cases.

But there are pockets of TRAs who disagree with this. Many were supportive of Yaniv until quite recently. I have seen Twitter posts outraged that Chan has been misgendered and quite blasé about the fact that Chan used their penis to rape their 80 year old mother with dementia.

If I was having this discussion I would like to find common ground that some cases are unacceptable. Maybe Chan should not go to a women’s prison. Maybe Barbie Kardashian shouldn’t?

That makes it easier to have a more nuanced discussion. Everything isn’t black or white.

FloralBunting · 08/08/2021 09:14

The point about Chan or Yaniv is not that they are representative of T people. It's that there are transactivists who are representative who will insist that women complying with the ideology's demands is more important that what these men have done.
(Brief, irritatingly necessary caveat to say that, as these men are bad, I am allowed to correctly sex them according to the general MNHQ zeitgeist, or have been before)

The crimes are almost irrelevant to TRAs. Your compliance is the focus. I don't quite know how to reach people whose moral compass is that fucked up, tbh.

FindTheTruth · 08/08/2021 09:18

Superb advice for @Iootraw1 from @BatmansBat. asking questions and listening works with teenagers 👍

2 other thoughts

  1. Your teenagers are showing you who they've become (at the moment) not because of anything you've done wrong, but because of dogma, social conditioning and the thought police at school, online and male rights activists pervading institutions across the country. They're surviving. They've been conditioned into EITHER / OR dogmatic thinking. These poor kids are being taught to hate their mothers. Taught to attack anyone who doesn't comply with 'John Money' philosophical beliefs. One suggestion is to point to trans men and women publicly challenging these beliefs. (there are plenty of them, if you need names)

  2. Boundaries are about what YOU need to give yourself. They are not about changing your teenagers views but about you setting your boundaries and being clear about them. e.g. saying "if you do X then I will do Y". It's about meeting your needs, regardless of how your family behaves. Be clear about what you are going to do if they don't meet your expectations.

BatmansBat · 08/08/2021 09:22

Floral, you have expressed this much better than I. The point isn’t at all that I believe that they are representatives. The point is that their crimes are completely disregarded and some TRAs cannot admit that they are in the wrong.

This is why discussing those particular cases is a good way to end the #nodebate. and if my children (after having been horrid to me) would defended those particular cases I would take a certain pleasure in pushing them to elaborate and ask follow up questions

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 09:24

Previous thread that analysed the consequences of our constructed "inner Beryls":

OP arranfan wrote, Fri 02-Nov-18:

"Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3412053-Mumsnet-FWR-Guide-to-De-Programming-Yourself-From-Self-Harming-Kindness

Phineyj · 08/08/2021 09:25

This happened in our house with Brexit (I actually didn't particularly disagree with my DH on the issues but I got SO FED UP of every single conversation becoming a rant that I ended all related discussion of any kind). It got us pretty close to divorce!

Maybe you need ground rules. No politics in the kitchen. No commenting on what other people are reading. Etc.

BlueBlazerBlack · 08/08/2021 09:47

Hi OP

I hope the derailing of this thread hasn't put you off from posting again.

There is lots of good advice on this thread already, but I just wanted to add my own perspective. Caveat: my children are not teenagers yet so I'll admit my lack of experience with this particular demographic!

It strikes me that your children and husband are disrespecting you in your own house by monitoring what you read and attacking you for your opinions. They don't see you as a 'full' person but rather as an extension of themselves and a facilitator of their needs. It's time for you to take back some control.

As others have said, make sure all your devices are password protected so they can't spy on you. Tell them to stay out of your phone and laptop. If you are reading any 'physical' books put them in your own room where they won't come across them. You deserve your privacy and it's wrong of them to invade it.

Secondly, avoid this topic like the plague unless you can be sure the conversation will remain civil. If they bring this up in a confrontational manner, then I would just refuse to engage. A non committal reply, a shrug or a simple 'ok then' is all you need to say. Do not allow them to call you names - if they call you a bigot, or hateful, just tell them that name calling won't be tolerated and that there will be consequences unless they apologise.

I believe that part of the reason they keep baiting you on this is because, deep down, they are not so sure of themselves. They have been told to believe something that goes against logic, reason and science, so they may be lashing out at you because they subconsciously agree with you. I think that is why this debate is so toxic and emotive - it's very hard to maintain cognitive dissonance without it taking a toll on you, and it's becoming harder for even the most committed activists to deny the evidence that people, particularly women, but also children, are being harmed by the consequences of self-ID.

Lastly, I think it's time for you to spend more time pursuing your own interests outside of the family home. Your children need to learn that you are person in your own right, with your own desires and wants, so make sure that if you don't already do this, you start spending more time out of the home doing your own thing, going out with your friends and having fun, instead of facilitating the lives of your husband and children. They are old enough not to need you to do everything for them.

What helped me grow up a lot when I was a teenager was when my mum, who had always been a stay at home mum, suddenly got a job outside of the home and started spending more time with her colleagues (previously she never really socialised much). It was at that moment that I started to see her as a different person and not just as my 'mum'.

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 09:47

I’ve absolutely had enough of my family bringing up ‘mum’s views’ (which I’ve learnt to keep completely private from them due to previously accusations of bigotry’), and then when I say a single thing in response,, accusing me of being ‘obsessed’ with it and not keeping it to myself!

I feel like I’m going mad. Husband saying he doesn’t know why I’m so obsessed with trans matters and I should keep to myself - I do! I don’t want to share with them because they don’t agree and don’t want to hear it.
Ever since the first time I tried to bring up and got shot down my him and kids I decided I would never mention again and wait for them one day to find out for themselves and be peaked.

Recognising the specific patterns of controlling behaviours and the impact on those subjected to them, whether in the home, workplace or within online fora is vital. Not only to prevent further harm to self and others but in respect of children and young people this models how they may have their needs met whilst respecting other people's needs and appropriate boundaries.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

ErrolTheDragon · 08/08/2021 09:51

They're being disrespectful and bullying.

I think I'd try to just block it. As soon as one of them starts to try to press that button, raise an eyebrow and say you thought they didn't want to talk about that (and if they persist, maybe 'why are you so obsessed?)

And I think I'd try to shift the focus firmly to women's rights. Don't try to get them to read Trans. I think might be a lot more productive to get something like Invisible Women. Talk about violence against women. Some people (especially youngsters and men, but some women too) will buy the 'most oppressed' story because they don't comprehend how sexism still affects women. Both misogyny and 'structural sexism'.

It's so important for them to understand those issues and harder to dismiss... why are you obsessed with women's rights .....

BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 09:55

@Jorris
"Just a strong internal belief that they are right. And women are wrong."

Your views aren't correct simply by the virtue of being a woman. And you don't speak for women in general, as many women disagree with you on trans issues.

A racist woman wouldn't be more justified in her racism on account of being a woman.

BlueBlazerBlack · 08/08/2021 09:57

@BluebirdsSong I think the poster was referring to the default assumption that women are always wrong, irrespective of their opinions. As a woman I've encountered this with a lot of men.

ErrolTheDragon · 08/08/2021 09:58

Wrong or irrelevant.

BlueBlazerBlack · 08/08/2021 09:59

Also racist women are often attacked with more vitriol than racist men and that is a form of sexism. We hold women to a higher standard than men because we expect women to shut up, pipe down and know their place.

BlueBlazerBlack · 08/08/2021 10:01

If you need further proof of this go and look at the responses JK Rowling got for a thoughtful and nuanced view. She received death and rape threat. I haven't seen any gender critical men receive even a fraction of the abuse.

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