Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

[HermioneKipper]

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

@Ninkanink

Oh there very much is a consensus. No men in women’s spaces.

Agreed. There is consensus.

The trans widows thread is not a debate Imasoulman. It's interesting that you think it is. It's also interesting to know that you follow it.

It's about enemies. It's about women being able to say no to males. Without being required to justify it. Or being force teamed into any 'yes, but...' situations.

There is no consensus among GC people on who should be allowed in women's spaces. Is it penises, biology, prostate glands, gait, a GRC or being a trans man? Without consensus your argument is weak.

The argument that female people should not be excluded from their one and only space to enable male people to choose which space they would feel most comfortable using because human rights and equality and inclusion and intersectionality and all those other nice words apply to female humans too? That's 'weak' is it? It's truly mindblowing how subhuman female people are in the eyes of some.

No, there's no consensus amongst women. There's been no attempt to consult them all. Or really to allow women's groups to present women's views and needs at policy meetings and advising government committees. Multiple evidence of how they have been excluded.

Until every last female has been consulted there can't be 'consensus' and even if only one female says no in the process, there will not be 'consensus'.

There will be broadly speaking two views. Female people who are perfectly happy to use mixed sex spaces in all situations and female people who are not. In matters of consent and inclusion: obviously the females saying no cannot just be told to shut up and undress or be excluded. Hence the need for third spaces. The difficult thing about all this will be enforcing (again) in law and by social expectations, that female people's needs and rights to inclusion require everyone respecting female only provision for female people instead of trying to harass them into just being subordinated and excluded quietly.

I do understand that.

However that fact doesn’t change anything n respect of how I feel and where my boundaries.

This is still a very simple problem with a very simple solution:

No men in women’s spaces.

*not about enemies, obviously.

*...where my boundaries lie

Not everyone who calls themselves a feminist is one. Just look at misogynist Nicola Sturgeon whose idea of feminism is aa tearful apology to TRA because she didn't vote against victims of violent gang rape being able to request that immediately after their intensely traumatic ordeal at the hands of men their internal injuries are assessed and catogued by a female examiner rather than prioritising the need for validation of a ttranswoman examiner.

I believe if would be useful all round to return to a point where there is a very clear distinction between a person who in simpler times would have been a "transsexual" and the rest of the people under the trans umbrella.

I understand it would be useful to some to gatekeep which male people get to use female spaces.

It is still male people telling female people what they can be allowed by male people, uncaring of what issues this presents to female people and the experience female people have had of the GRA and trying this little 'experiment'.

The trust is gone. The ship has sailed. That's an ex parrot.

So it's really crucial to name men as men because that is how we develop an understanding and an analysis of patriarchy. That's how. If we can't name men as men then we can't name patterns of male violence, we can't name who is in control.

Dr Julia Long's 2017 speech focuses on the core reason why it has been essential for women's liberation to be able to freely recognise, describe and name male control/violent/abuse behaviours.

There have always been many determined and varied ways in which some men have sought to prevent this.

I wish people would understand not all Trans people are in favour of what's happening, why do we all have to be the enemy

Years of watching our rights being eroded, children's safety being ignored, and being doxed and threatened by trans activism even at the highest level tends to make women less sympathetic. I appreciate it's difficult for you. I really do. But it's been utterly devastating for women. And so this is where we are now.

The trust is gone. The ship has sailed. That's an ex parrot.

Yep.

I wish people would understand not all Trans people are in favour of what's happening, why do we all have to be the enemy

Are you campaigning for no transwomen in women's sports?
Are you campainging to stop transwomen using women's hosital wards, toilets, prisons?
Are you campaigning against allowing Stonewall to affect policy?
Are you campaigning for grass roots women's groups to be consulted on natters affecting us?
Are you campaigning for the word 'woman' to refer exclusively to adult human females?
Do you recogise that regardless of the sex stereotypes you identify with, you are a man?
Do you recognise that sex stereotypes are harmful?

Do you recognise that the term 'transwoman' is a harmful appropriation?

I wish people would understand not all Trans people are in favour of what's happening, why do we all have to be the enemy

Women have been forced into this by TRAs - either one is an ally or one is the enemy. Anything that is less than boot-licking obeisance to TRA ideology is unacceptable.

You need to take the issue up with TRAs - not women.

Yes. The trolls and the true believers have driven this.

You push and push and push and finally women will have no choice but to push back hard.

@Ninkanink

Oh there very much is a consensus. No men in women’s spaces.

There is no consensus and you know it. There is no agreement on the definition of man. Some GC say no penis = allowed in.

@TinselAngel

The trans widows thread is not a debate Imasoulman. It's interesting that you think it is. It's also interesting to know that you follow it.

Support group then?
Yes I guess calling it a debate is wide of the mark.

Why is it interesting that I follow it?
Is it surprising that I try to look at things from different viewpoints.
One of the reasons that I enjoy these boards is the education they give me, I have learnt so much about feminism and the concerns of women.
I have realised things that I had never even thought about before.
I now find myself joining the fight although it seems I'm not particularly welcome.

believe if would be useful all round to return to a point where there is a very clear distinction between a person who in simpler times would have been a "transsexual" and the rest of the people under the trans umbrella

I don't want basic human rights stripped from anyone under the umbrella. But that means basic rights such as the right not to be sacked from your job, to not be discriminated against in that way.

But people who want transexuals to be considered different from other 'trans' aren't talking about basic rights. They want extra privileges. Like the right to go into women's spaces.

So for all intents and purposes you should all be treated the same I'm afraid. No access to women's spaces. Equal access to mental health services etc.

It doesn’t matter if some say that.

It does not need to be 100%.

Consensus works by general agreement.

GC women by and large are in general agreement that No means No.

No men in women’s spaces. We do not consent.

Further, the vast majority of women, GC or not, do not want men in women’s spaces.

The difficult thing about all this will be enforcing (again) in law and by social expectations, that female people's needs and rights to inclusion require everyone respecting female only provision for female people instead of trying to harass them into just being subordinated and excluded quietly.

Transwomen post the line about not being able to keep them out of our spaces without genital checks as if it’s some kind of gotcha that means we should all just relax & give in.

What they either don’t get or don’t care is that they’re telling us transwomen have no respect for women’s boundaries. They’re telling us that they’re not acting in good faith & we can’t trust them.

There is no consensus and you know it. There is no agreement on the definition of man. Some GC say no penis = allowed in.

And that's why the line has to be drawn. No born men. Regardless of whether they have had surgery. That ship has now sailed and our sympathy is gone. No point in clinging on to the few who are still being kind. They don't decide for other women that men should be in their space. They don't decide that myself and my daughter's should have to undress in front of men.

Do you get that yet? Is it sinking in?

If some women say no, then the answer is no. Campaign for your own space.

Womens space belongs to women.

And #bekind is over.

There is no agreement on the definition of man

That statement is utter horseshit.

@Tibtom

I wish people would understand not all Trans people are in favour of what's happening, why do we all have to be the enemy

Are you campaigning for no transwomen in women's sports?
Are you campainging to stop transwomen using women's hosital wards, toilets, prisons?
Are you campaigning against allowing Stonewall to affect policy?
Are you campaigning for grass roots women's groups to be consulted on natters affecting us?
Are you campaigning for the word 'woman' to refer exclusively to adult human females?
Do you recogise that regardless of the sex stereotypes you identify with, you are a man?
Do you recognise that sex stereotypes are harmful?

This.

Are you doing all these things Imasoulman?

Males deciding which men are allowed in women's spaces isn't 'supporting women'. It's the opposite.

Endorsing a concept that a male, by enacting female stereotypes, can be called a sex other than male, isn't supporting women. It's the opposite. It's sexist.

You may feel Imasoulman that a non-AGP motivation for calling men trans, makes a difference, but it doesn't to women who require single sex spaces.

The consensus, so far, is no man, whatsoever, in women's spaces.

If there are women who think that you can make a distinction, then they are welcome to approve a mixed sex space. But neither they, nor men, get to decide what a single sex place comprises.

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

The difficult thing about all this will be enforcing (again) in law and by social expectations, that female people's needs and rights to inclusion require everyone respecting female only provision for female people instead of trying to harass them into just being subordinated and excluded quietly.

Transwomen post the line about not being able to keep them out of our spaces without genital checks as if it’s some kind of gotcha that means we should all just relax & give in.

What they either don’t get or don’t care is that they’re telling us transwomen have no respect for women’s boundaries. They’re telling us that they’re not acting in good faith & we can’t trust them.

But they are not women's bounderies. They are your bounderies. You cannot speak for all women. There are women's refuges run by women who would disagree with you for a start.