Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

[HermioneKipper]

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

I fully expect my thread above to be taken down. I'm a lesbian, I'm the bottom of the pile and on the receiving end of men dressed as women telling me they're lesbians — but my view and experience and understanding don't count, or are possibly too dangerous to be allowed to stand.

Sorry, my post not my thread.

Yes, so few care about lesbians their rights to dignity, safety and the privacy of their bodies. Lesbophobia is rampant and ignored.

@stepupandbecounted

We are now at the mercy of anyone wishing to shut down and close down the debates we have about safety.

Any one with an agenda can simply come on derail and post vile things and the thread disappears.

Why is that okay?

Good point @stepupandbecounted:

We are now at the mercy of anyone wishing to shut down and close down the debates we have on safety.

Anyone with an agenda can simply come on derail and post vile things and the thread disappears.

Why is this ok?

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet

How is Mumsnet going to prevent this from occurring?

Mumsnet is exactly that, a group of mothers talking about day to day life, concerns and issues. I am amazed we have even been allowed to keep the name!! And they haven't successfully changed it - yet.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Yes, so few care about lesbians their rights to dignity, safety and the privacy of their bodies. Lesbophobia is rampant and ignored.

This makes me so, so angry. The hypocrisy is just so crystal clear, and yet no one’s screaming about that.

to you, @Shedbuilder.

I would like to see the thread reinstated please.

Minus the offending posts.

@HermioneKipper

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

How would you know if a penis entered the bathroom? Would there be an inspector? None of the bathroom proposals make sense unless there is policing and inspections. Which will never happen.

It's a joke.

I had a thread deleted in AIBU a few months ago for saying that this 'non binary' trend was a load of old rubbish.

It didn't matter that 97% of contributors agreed with me, as evidenced by the poll itself and the 20+ pages of posts.

"You cant say that!"

It's an interesting question to ask and I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed to stand so that people can discuss it.

Why, for example, are transwomen still supposed to be considered women with intact male genitalia, but transmen never keep their breasts?

We must be able to discuss motivations in order to understand this, and it is not generalising to state the fact that there are a large percentage of transwomen who want a certain outcome from the manner in which they transition and choose to present. After all, not all transwomen are the same are they? Why can't we openly discuss the statistics on various reasons for transitioning?

@JustAnotherPoster00

I would not feel safe in a changing room or on a hospital ward with people with a penis.

Without being able to peer in their underwear how would you know?

Isn't the essence of a changing room that everyone strips down to or removes their underwear?

There are a lot of other ways to refute your suggestion, but MN rules, y'know? So you'll just have to take it from me that you're wrong.

If by any chance maybe A Friend had managed to preserve a copy of the thread until around 9ish this morning, how, theoretically, would they go about archiving and sharing said copy???

Largely a lurker here but have learnt SO much. I started out more in the #BeKind/ally crew but too much dismissal of vulnerable women raised red flags for me. And, as asked, I educated myself… I agree with PP that what is NOT allowed to be said is very illuminating…

@Chickenyhead

The deletion message...

Message from MNHQ: We've removed this thread as a large number of posts break our talk guidelines, specifically; sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated

I saw that thread.

I don't always agree with MN's approach to deletion but I do here.

I don't mean the OP and there were many fair posts. Many however, as the deletion message states, were not.

I broadly fall into the GC camp, find many MN posts helpful, but absolutely note the harsh, extreme, generalising posts too. It doesn't seem to be acceptable (on MN) I find to occupy a middle ground.

How would you know if a penis entered the bathroom? Would there be an inspector? None of the bathroom proposals make sense unless there is policing and inspections. Which will never happen.

Mishy, are you also proposing that males who identify as women would use a single sex facility that has made clear that it is using the exemption available to them under the EA2010 to exclude all males? Are you suggesting that they would disrespect the needs of the females who need that facility?

Is that why you are bringing up genital inspectors? The only people I ever see bring this up are those prioritising males using whatever facility they wish to above women and children's needs.

They fail to understand the finer points of what they are suggesting.

I am painfully aware that the people behind MN have been personally targeted in deeply unpleasant ways, and I think they have done a very good job of stepping over tripwires, and they have done it for years.

However, BeckyMN - the guidelines just aren't clear. I don't want to make mistakes and upset people, but, every time I've been deleted or had a strike it was a surprise to me.

Apart from once I said a trans woman (who posts on here in a way that I find superior and unpleasant) had at least one thing in common with my husband - which was a cheap shot that I was provoked into because of the TW's patronising approach to the women on the thread. It was a defence through humour but I can see why the trans woman would object to it.

The other times? Not a clue. Honestly, not got a single clue what I did that was wrong. Even with explanations from HQ - I just don't get why stating facts is a problem.

It is a fact that the primary reason some male people transition is because they are AGP. It's not uncommon, it's a thing that impacts on women and I do not understand why we cannot discuss that.

How would you know if a penis entered the bathroom? Would there be an inspector? None of the bathroom proposals make sense unless there is policing and inspections. Which will never happen.

You would know if the penis came out (like it did in the sauna in LA.)
And then what?
No one can say “ put it away” as the 80% of trans women with a penis are women.
And you can’t say “ you aren’t a trans woman” because that’s trans phobic.

Much easier to say only biological women in women’s spaces and then there’s no penis problem.

@nauticant

It's because the narrative is that trans people are the most oppressed ever and all lead lives where they struggle terribly. Deviation from that narrative is "transphobic".

This is an example of a post I find objectionable.

That's not the narrative I see. MN provides for debate.

Undoubtedly the trans community do face greater discrimination that other communities.

That doesn't mean it's ok to support natal males in female only spaces / support.

I really hate the polar opposite approach, so often on here, with no room for nuance.

Chickenyhead

What I don't understand, is how there are people on this thread vilifying posters for surmised the reasons a transwoman may keep their tackle, because women don't know how it feels to be trans.

However, it's OK than men know how it feels to be a woman in identifying themselves to be trans.

So one side can subsume the feelings of the other, without actual knowledge, but the other side must be silent.

Is this not the biggest double standard?

This is precisely how it works. Transwomen can espouse on what it is to be a woman but women are not allowed to discuss their opinions on trans.

---

I guess there's a slightly different origin to the speculation - for trans women talking about what they consider it feels like to be a woman that comes from a positive place for them, I imagine. They want to be women, it's aspirational, desirable for them (although of course it is easy to see how the explanations could be considered facile by some others).

Whereas for some others, especially on these boards, critiquing the possible thoughts, motivations of trans people - it's not generally coming from an identification process of feeling like they are trans, it's often coming from a critical viewpoint that is quite negative.

Mumsnet presumably don't have the same sort of problem with positive generalisations as they do about negative generalisations?

I wonder if this post will be deleted for generalising about people who are generalising about other people haha.

I agree with vivariumvivariumsvivaria and especially because this hurts women and children

I see the TRA posters are desperate to insist trans people habitually ignore boundaries and women can't stop them.

On a thread about the arbitrary guidelines on FWR which mean women are unsure what they are permitted to say.

It's like a real time demonstration of over reach and entitlement on the part of the sex that produces small gametes.

@FloralBunting

I see the TRA posters are desperate to insist trans people habitually ignore boundaries and women can't stop them.

On a thread about the arbitrary guidelines on FWR which mean women are unsure what they are permitted to say.

It's like a real time demonstration of over reach and entitlement on the part of the sex that produces small gametes.

The old "whatcha gonna do about it?" argument.

Without being able to peer in peoples underwear

The fact is that in a lot of spaces, such as communal changing rooms, showers, spas etc you wouldn't need to look in a transwoman's underwear to see the penis because no-one would be wearing underwear.

And given that a penis can often react in a certain way when the owner of the penis is pleased to see someone, it can be extremely uncomfortable or frightening for all the women present. A large number of women are survivors of sexual assault or rape.

This has happened to a lot of women - such as the Australian women's handball team. But when they asked if the transwoman in question could shower and change in a separate space, the women were told it was transphobic to even ask for their privacy and dignity.

Why, for example, are transwomen still supposed to be considered women with intact male genitalia, but transmen never keep their breasts?

@GromblesofGrimbledon this is because “top surgery” is relatively simple and non invasive. Removing breasts is really just aesthetic surgery when all is said and done while rather removal of the penis requires invasive surgery to relocate the urethra, create a vagina etc.

I wrote a post a while back expressing the sentiment that agp is basically being condoned by schools through affirmation model and the lumping together of gender dysphoria, identity and agp. Not saying all trans are agp, but that the affirmation of trans flies directly opposite in how schools deal with similar things.
I predicted my post would be deleted because of the agp mention, but was shocked to have a strike for stating a fact-that similar 'conditions' are not treated the same way in schools.
Think it's pretty poor I was deleted and issued a strike. I think parents have the right, within reason, to know what their children are taught. Especially when mental health and healthy bodies are concerned.
But because I mentioned agp the post was automatically deleted and strike issued.

I don't think I should get a strike for this either because I have not made 'sweeping generalisations' and have stuck to the ago rule as mentioned on this thread by hq.

I now haven't mentioned that since or similar points due to fear of being deleted. I use Mumsnet for the special needs section and can't lose that particular lifeline.

But I do think it's relevant I have professional concerns that have effectively been silenced.