Some thoughts on trans, the media and society

[Nefelibata33]

Hello everyone, I'm starting a new thread, cos I posted this message on a thread about Dr Helen Webberley, but people said they didn't want to discuss it, cos the thread was specifically about Dr Webberley. So I thought I would post my message for everyone to see, in a new thread. I think it's worth reading, I would like to discuss things with people. If you want to say something, please do. I will talk to anyone. Abuse me if you want, but I'd prefer if you didn't. I couldn't give a sh*t tbh. Sending love xxx. Here's my original message below

Hi everyone.

Just a post to say something. Firstly, if you are really concerned about big pharma, check that the NHS is in league with big pharma, and they dish out drugs like they're smarties. I have no idea what state you may be in, but you may have experience of this. I find it totally scary that so many people are getting hooked on drugs, cos a doctor prescribed it. This really isn't ok. As an example, a few years ago, they changed the blood sugar reading for which you can be described as diabetic. So more people could be diagnosed as diabetic, and more people could be given diabetic meds, and hey... a GP gets a bonus every time they diagnose someone as diabetic. I think the NHS is great, the nurses who are ready to sacrifice their own lives to help others, like Florence Nightingale. Like my Grandma. Like one of my cousins. But the ones who sit in offices and dish out drugs, they are a real problem.

Why am I saying this? Because doctors will dish out every drug going, even when they have horrendous side effects, make people actually feel worse than they were to begin with. Do we hear anything about this in the media? No. It doesn't sell papers. Any sort of backlash against big pharma? No. Because the media are onside with the mega rich pharmaceutical company directors getting richer and the poor getting poorer, not that the media would say that. Is there a type of drug doctors aren't allowed to dish out? Yes, oestrogen or testosterone.

This is the only thing no doctor can prescribe. There are plenty of countries around the world that take a different approach to trans people, and it's not so difficult to get hormones. With no disasters taking place. Keira Bell got a lot of attention. One person that made a mistake, amongst the thousands of trans kids who are happy as they are. One person. The media made a big deal of it.

Would it be wrong if I said that the media in this country have an axe to grind against any minority group? The Sun carried out a massive racist hate campaign against Raheem Sterling a few years ago. Britain's most prominent black footballer, it wasn't racist at all. You saw the racist abuse thing after England didn't win the Euros. It's absolutely shameful that so many people think it's OK to send someone death threats, JUST BECAUSE THEIR SKIN IS A DIFFERENT COLOUR. Encouraged by the Sun. The tabloids are the cancer of this country, our society would be much better without them I think, but we're stuck with them. They killed Princess Diana. A woman who was in the prime of her life, so happy, and bang... killed by the tabloids. There was a massive outpouring of emotion, but did it stop anyone from buying the tabloids? No. Nobody learns. I've read on this site, all this woke this woke that. Prince Harry has been accused of being woke. Cos he married a mixed race woman, and he doesn't want her to end up like his Mum. Think about it. Not "woke", a loving human being.

I don't get the woke thing. It's just a word that has been invented to describe someone who cares for social justice, and is right on. Can someone please explain to me why that's so bad? I really don't get it. Why are kind people a problem? Could it be, that there are just a lot of people who aren't very kind?

Back onto the media, they are totally corrupt, lying bullshtters. GB News is really struggling, so to boost ratings, they decided to attack the Trans community. To boost ratings! I guess that's more entertaining for the sort of people who watch it. I am now going to say something. I don't care who you are, but just realise this. Trans people are being treated just like gays were 20 or 30 years ago. The media do this to sell papers, and make money. Rupert Murdoch is Australian, he's an immigrant, but his papers bang on about immigration. Fcking hypocrite. The demonisation of Trans people is just part of a large scale war by the right wing/neo nazi movement. Are any of you reading this wondering now? It's part of a nazi thing. Caring for children is one thing, but demonising a group of people who just happened to be so unlucky that they were born in the wrong body is another. Have a heart, people. No transgender person wants to hurt you, or your children. They are not dangerous to anyone, the women's toilets, shelters, changing rooms in clothes shops... This is the truth. You don't get the truth in the papers. The papers don't have anyone's best interest at heart, they are just trying to make money.

I've said what I needed to say. I came on Mumsnet cos I'd heard of it, and I wanted to see how people think. I've received quite a bit of abuse off people, quite nasty, and some questions about my level of intelligence. Don't worry, I'm intelligent, and I won't stoop to the level of insulting someone else for being different, or having different opinions.

I am a feminist. There, I said it. I would die to protect a woman. So how come so many so called feminists are against Trans women? Do you actually believe a Trans woman is going to rape you in the toilets? NEWS! Trans women don't hurt or kill women, MEN DO. Trans women are not men. No Trans woman wants to hurt you. It's just the sort of fcked up shtbag men that want to hurt you.

If anyone wants to comment on anything I wrote, feel free. Make it intelligent, no gratuitous abuse please X

The problem of men being a threat to transwomen will not be solved by putting transwomen in women’s prisons or refugee or changing rooms, it will be solved by doing the really hard work of changing the culture of toxic masculinity.

Third spaces for toilets- used by transpeople and any of their supportive allies would be a start. Separate toilets for women who don’t want unisex facilities.
If transwomen are unsafe in prisons the work needs doing to make prisons safer for all. Separate wings for transwomen. This would be, long term, safer for all.
Rape and DV services specific for men, women, transmen, transwomen.
I see lots of men declaring their support for transwomen but not up to the point of altering male attitudes. Saying “if a man wants to harm women then will” is not acceptable. It’s not enough. Because it equally applies to men who would harm transwomen. It will only end when men come together and agree to stop harming others. Men, women,,children, transpeople.
If every male ally and every org that claims to support transpeople (usually meant as transwomen, oddly enough) would work towards ending a culture that accepts men in general do not need to alter their behaviour because women can sort it out for them would save lives.
If the problem is men then men need to step up and commit to changing. Violent men are a danger that should not be shrugged off.
No one seems to have any interest in doing this. Stonewall don’t want to spend money educating men, just shunting off a problem onto women.
Why?
We cannot have a better world of women are constantly told they are hateful for not wanting male bodies in places they are vulnerable. It won’t (long term) protect transwomen and it is already harming women.
When will men take responsibility?

I'm really sorry you have diabetes, it's an awful endocrine disease.

Unfortunately the comparison with diabetic drug management is not a good one.

Puberty blockers have been shown to damage the endocrine system.

A woman posting here who had them for precious puberty has a damaged thyroid and other endocrine issues, a lot of pain and I think osteoporosis as a result.

This is nothing to do with "hate."

Giving pbs to a girl who wants to be a boy stunts growth, among the other issues. So she will be a very short trans man.

Giving pbs to a boys who wants to be a girl stunts growth too, and of the penis, making srs very difficult, as well as loss of sensation and ability to orgasm.

Fertility is also another issue.

Causing damage to a healthy body when there's no clear definition of what the diagnosis is (GD diagnosis is based on sexist stereotypes) is a safeguarding issue.

Does it matter? As long as we are all good people?

Good people don't advocate destroying children's bodies with puberty blockers / cross sex hormones. Good people don't other women in their own sex class and try to remove their safeguards and right to single sex spaces by opening them up to men who identify as women.. Anyone who thinks this is ok is absolutely not a good person.

GB News just tried to boost their failing ratings by starting a hate campaign against trans women.

Their recent focus since Farage got a presenting role appears to be on immigrants/immigration, as a minority group I would have though there would be more concern or interest around this if you actually look at the content and coverage.

Katy Jon (a she/they) has been on a few times, most recently talking about pronouns and there has been some coverage of safeguarding failures on children's homes and the Lambeth case.

I'm wondering if you even watch GB News...

Just stop! PLEASE!

Take it up with GB News as your issue seems to be with them.

GB News just tried to boost their failing ratings by starting a hate campaign against trans women.

You seem very angry about GB News, but women have been concerned about all this for years. For me it started back in 2015 with the realisation that male prisoners, including violent sex offenders, were in women’s prisons. There’s much more information on that at keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk.

SourAppleChew, Googling ‘widen the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman’ might be enlightening.

Maybe OP would like to read the Break it Down thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?topicid=5365&threadid=3145470&pg=25

I known there is links there that show the bone density loss that puberty blockers cause. And that females don’t ever recover.

I am sure that OP would like to see the proof. For instance here is one study (posted by a trans poster who thought it showed something other than it does. It was a failed ‘gotcha’ moment.)

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

Here are some other effects proven in links on this twitter thread also.

twitter.com/threadreaderapp/status/1336607674344103938?s=21

There are lots of evidence and studies posted on that thread. It is very useful.

OP why are you pretending to be in the UK when you're clearly posting from an American perspective and know very little about how the UK health service works, or even that we don't live in "States"?

You're posts are difficult to follow and not engaging with responses. I'd question if it's in the best interests of your mental health to post here.

Damn. My grammar is shocking today. I blame auto correct, but it could also be my dodgy eyesight.

OK, so I have a penis. Just wanted to share that with you

Just so you know, I have an inkling many women here will have guessed your sex. So as a member of a privileged group who is concerned about social justice, do you often tell members of structurally oppressed groups you are not a member of what they should believe and think about their own rights?

GC women don't 'hate on' or discriminate against transwomen. They just recognise the fact that they aren't women. And as such, should not be allowed in women only spaces such as women's refuges.

I haven't heard a single GC woman suggest that trans people should have any fewer rights than everyone else (which they don't). Nor have I heard GC women make death threats, threats of sexual violence, or any other kind of threats to trans people. I've seen plenty of that from transwomen towards feminists though. Seemingly it's trans rights activists, if anyone in this debate, who need to learn to #BeKind.

If any of you reading this, maybe yourselves, or loved ones, have been offered meds, FCKING REFUSE THEM. Unless it's absolutely necessary, of course. Meds are really good for some cases. But the whole big pharma thing is sickening*

You must see the irony in what you have posted there OP. In relation to the topic at hand.

Being GC doesn't mean you hate trans people by the way, but a middle ground of separate facilities, or pushing back on changing language that affects women negatively is seen as hate when it's actually reasonable.

I'm curious as to why you aren't championing for a society that breaks down the notion of gender? Or why third spaces or whatever else aren't okay and it just has to be let us in to womens spaces? Why transmen are hardly ever mentioned, and it's always transwomen?

Trans women are NOT men. If you believe that, you've got no fcking clue, and you don't know what you're talking about.*

That's your belief, which you are entitled to. But it's a faith based belief, that by saying you are something you automatically become that thing. It's a belief that a self definition is more important than the ones with which we make sense of the world. It's a form of collective narcissism.

As someone who has been on the wrong end of male violence, including sexual violence more than once, I don't have the required naive level of faith in people always being on the level, sorry. Plus it is founded in dodgy pseudoscience and I've never seen anything which convinces me to believe that even true gender dysphoria (which I think is much rarer than claimed) is anything other than psychological in nature.

@Bawdrip

I'm starting to get the impression that trans women aren't desperately trying to be seen as women, rather they are desperately trying not to be grouped with men. Op you seem to really hate men and the social constraints that are being put on men re their emotions. I urge you to be the change from within your sex group, rather than cross to the other side. That's what being gender critical is BTW. Your posts have been eye opening to me but not in the way you intended. I also hope you are OK, your posts read very much as though you are not.

I agree Bawdrip

I think the same about girls/young women wanting to be male - most don’t actually want to be boys/men, they just want to escape from what they think being a woman is about.

Eg to escape being sexually assaulted/abused.

It’s very sad.

As someone who works for the NHS I must say that @Nefelibata33 you have no idea how the finances of the NHS work. There is literally zero incentive for the NHS to give out drugs. They are not controlled by big pharma, and from my experience as an employee and a patient, doctors actually want to send you down the route that DOESN'T involve medication.
The NHS isn't like America, they don't get reimbursed for every little medication they distribute, most of the time (from a hospital standpoint) they actually go out of pocket from prescribing certain meds, that's why we have local Clinical Commissioning Groups that decide what medications need to be available.
The NHS was built to HELP the people of the UK, and although it is underfunded the people who work for it will always try their best to keep it that way.

Very, very well said @Chickenyhead

I’m really not sure how you get yourself to a point where Big Pharma is simultaneously inflicting on and withholding drugs from people, but at that point, the best medicine is probably a cup of tea and a lie down.

Nobody hates you here, OP. This is a feminist board, analysing how the public conversation about gender impacts on women. Clearly, you find that upsetting, but that is not in anyone’s control except yours.

Trans women are NOT men. If you believe that, you've got no fcking clue, and you don't know what you're talking about.

Transwomen can only be defined as women if you officially change what the word 'women' means. The word 'women' still means 'adult human female' to the vast, vast, vast majority of people in the world (including the vast majority of doctors, for whom it is vital to know the difference between a man and a woman). It is very odd to think your belief based on your own feelings is more true than what most people in the world know as fact.

I wonder what @Nefelibata33 would say to trans women who also think and write and campaign like the posters here?

Seven is a trans woman and is campaigning for third spaces. She does not use women's loos despite being subjected to transphobic abuse in them. She respects women too much.

sevenhex.com/

Miranda Yardley, a trans woman who prefers to be called a transsexual and uses male pronouns after realising how offensive it was to women, also writes extensively about all of this.

Miranda submitted written evidence to parliament around various issues linked to transgender status and health care:

"Treatment under the NHS

It should be recognised that meaningful therapy has value and that it is more cost effective and may result in a non-interventionist outcome. One gender reassignment operation could fund up to 200 one hour therapy sessions. Access to this therapy via the NHS is inadequate. Therapy should not focus on facilitating gender transition, rather it should attempt to enable the individual to come to terms with themselves and explore other possibilities than transition and even surgery.

NHS services for trans youth

It concerns me greatly that the observed phenomenon of ‘rapid onset gender dysphoria’ is being ignored largely as being ‘transgender’, whatever that may be, is being treated as if it were a single condition. This flies in the face of evidence that transgender behaviours delineate by sex and within each sex by sexual orientation. The emergence of rapid onset gender dysphoria has largely been silenced by activists who stand to benefit from the instrumentalisation of children to their political cause, children whose own reasons for apparent discomfort with their biological sex are a world away from those activists who are pushing this agenda. (4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/)

November 2020"

It also outlines the importance of women's spaces being for women.

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18025/pdf/

mirandayardley.com/en/

OP.

What makes you a woman?

What characteristics are shared by all women and transwomen that are not shared by any men or transmen?

This is the one question that is never, ever answered, along with the question 'what is a woman?'

Answer those questions using non-circular logic and then maybe I will reconsider my position as to whether ftm transitioners are women.

Op. No one here hates transwomen. Transwomen are transwomen. With their own unique needs and identities. Which are different to the needs of natal women. It's that simple. Both groups need care, support snd services that cater specifically for their needs. But those needs aren't always the same.

Big pharma is not a thing in the U.K. and frankly your posts come across as rambling incoherent rants with no basis in fact. Live your life and be your best self but don't come here and mansplain to women about what womanhood means. That is so offensive. I'm unsure from your posts if you are a transwoman yourself or you are simply writing as a trans ally but you don't get to dictate what women should think and feel about being women, the same as no one who is not trans should dictate to a transwoman (or transman) what it feels like to be trans. They are two different states, which rightly deserve their own spaces, support, care and services. I wouldn't dream of mansplaining Transhood to a transwoman or transman because that would be grossly offensive and insensitive.

Just a thought.

OP, I think other posters have hit the nail on the head: you seem to really hate men, which is odd and very sad. Being a woman doesn't mean that you automatically hate men, just like being an adult doesn't mean you hate children. Saying that a person with a penis is not a woman is no different than saying that a person over 18 is not a child.
Nobody here is saying anything hateful about transwomen. We're just saying transwomen are male so not women. Its not dehumanising because men and women are both human. I'm sorry you hate men so much: being a man is not a bad thing at all, it's ts just different from being a woman

I find it really weird this whole feminism against trans women sort of sht. If you're that bothered about it, call me a trans woman and that's fine. Can we agree on that? I can't talk for everyone, but we just would like to be accepted as human beings, not HATED no DISCRIMATION. No human being should have to experience that. I wish I wasn't how I am. I can't help how I am. It's not a choice. It's really sht.

We all now you are a human being. COntrary to what you may have read about MN and us GC posters we aren't idiots. We just believe and undertsadn biology. We don't hate you or discriminate against you because your aare a tranwoman. We just don't want male bodies in single sex female space. That's entirely legal, the EA2010 specifically contains guidelines about it and women rely on single sex spaces for their safety, mental health etc. We too cannot help how we are, female!

I am making a plea to all of you - stop hating on trans women. PLEASE! Whatever you think, we are just human beings. I am a human just like you. I don't mean you any harm. No trans woman does, we are sisters. Call me what you like, if I'm not allowed to call myself a woman, so be it. I'd like to call myself a woman, but it seems that women won't let me. TM. That's easy - we don't hate transwomen!

But you aren't being truthfuul. There are many, many instances where you trans sisters have harmed women ad children. You know that, we know that. And you can call yourself what you like - you cannot force us to believe or agree with you. You are not a woman. You are a transwoman and by definition, male.

Life is hell. Please spread the word, stop hating transgender people. GB News just tried to boost their failing ratings by starting a hate campaign against trans women. Just stop! PLEASE! I really want everyone who reads this to realise that it's cruelty. There seems to be so much hatred. We need less hatred, more tolerance, love, acceptance. Again, not hate but safegurading the rights of women and girls. GB News haven't started a hate campaign they have started raising the realities of being forced to accept gender ideology.

As someone who shares her life with a transwoman and a transman, and have done so for 30+ years, I don't recognise any of your assertions. Yes they have both faced discrimination, have been 'othered'. But, as they both say, they chose to transition , to step outside social norms, and like anyone else who does so, fully expected to face such attitudes. Their response has been to remember their natal sex and be respectful of women and their rights.

They find some things difficult, some things irreconcilable - as in my transwoman friend finds it difficult to navigate public female spaces, changing rooms, toilets etc. She has had all the surgery possible but is acutely aware that as she ages her body betrays her maleness more and more. She has to accept that and all the inconvenience it brings to her life.

Note the pronouns used, like many other GC women I am happy to use them duirectly to and about an individual. Just not about the ideology!

Now... put down that self righteous chip on your shoulder and try talking to us rather than at us!

OK, so I have a penis. Just wanted to share that with you

Yes, your perspective makes it clear. You may not realise but it's often quite easy to tell online.

Your posts criticise lack of access to medication and simultaneously criticise easy access. It's incoherent because it's only related to your personal feelings and needs.

Likewise the aggressive telling women to stop hating trans people. Wanting sex segregation isn't hate. The fact is we wouldn't need it if the hate wasn't flowing from the opposite direction.

Aggressively telling women to be kind so you can get what you want, doesn't work here.

The answer is no.

@Chickenyhead. You wrote a comprehensive and articulate post, addressing the OP's points which was 'too tiring' to respond to. It's shit behaviour.

I was told by a trans woman (online) that she would make me suck her lady dick and rape for for stating that I did not agree with her premise that I had to have sex with trans women.

I’d call that harm being wished on me, wouldn’t you?

tl;dr: Women - think this way, act this way.