Some thoughts on trans, the media and society

[Nefelibata33]

Hello everyone, I'm starting a new thread, cos I posted this message on a thread about Dr Helen Webberley, but people said they didn't want to discuss it, cos the thread was specifically about Dr Webberley. So I thought I would post my message for everyone to see, in a new thread. I think it's worth reading, I would like to discuss things with people. If you want to say something, please do. I will talk to anyone. Abuse me if you want, but I'd prefer if you didn't. I couldn't give a sh*t tbh. Sending love xxx. Here's my original message below

Hi everyone.

Just a post to say something. Firstly, if you are really concerned about big pharma, check that the NHS is in league with big pharma, and they dish out drugs like they're smarties. I have no idea what state you may be in, but you may have experience of this. I find it totally scary that so many people are getting hooked on drugs, cos a doctor prescribed it. This really isn't ok. As an example, a few years ago, they changed the blood sugar reading for which you can be described as diabetic. So more people could be diagnosed as diabetic, and more people could be given diabetic meds, and hey... a GP gets a bonus every time they diagnose someone as diabetic. I think the NHS is great, the nurses who are ready to sacrifice their own lives to help others, like Florence Nightingale. Like my Grandma. Like one of my cousins. But the ones who sit in offices and dish out drugs, they are a real problem.

Why am I saying this? Because doctors will dish out every drug going, even when they have horrendous side effects, make people actually feel worse than they were to begin with. Do we hear anything about this in the media? No. It doesn't sell papers. Any sort of backlash against big pharma? No. Because the media are onside with the mega rich pharmaceutical company directors getting richer and the poor getting poorer, not that the media would say that. Is there a type of drug doctors aren't allowed to dish out? Yes, oestrogen or testosterone.

This is the only thing no doctor can prescribe. There are plenty of countries around the world that take a different approach to trans people, and it's not so difficult to get hormones. With no disasters taking place. Keira Bell got a lot of attention. One person that made a mistake, amongst the thousands of trans kids who are happy as they are. One person. The media made a big deal of it.

Would it be wrong if I said that the media in this country have an axe to grind against any minority group? The Sun carried out a massive racist hate campaign against Raheem Sterling a few years ago. Britain's most prominent black footballer, it wasn't racist at all. You saw the racist abuse thing after England didn't win the Euros. It's absolutely shameful that so many people think it's OK to send someone death threats, JUST BECAUSE THEIR SKIN IS A DIFFERENT COLOUR. Encouraged by the Sun. The tabloids are the cancer of this country, our society would be much better without them I think, but we're stuck with them. They killed Princess Diana. A woman who was in the prime of her life, so happy, and bang... killed by the tabloids. There was a massive outpouring of emotion, but did it stop anyone from buying the tabloids? No. Nobody learns. I've read on this site, all this woke this woke that. Prince Harry has been accused of being woke. Cos he married a mixed race woman, and he doesn't want her to end up like his Mum. Think about it. Not "woke", a loving human being.

I don't get the woke thing. It's just a word that has been invented to describe someone who cares for social justice, and is right on. Can someone please explain to me why that's so bad? I really don't get it. Why are kind people a problem? Could it be, that there are just a lot of people who aren't very kind?

Back onto the media, they are totally corrupt, lying bullshtters. GB News is really struggling, so to boost ratings, they decided to attack the Trans community. To boost ratings! I guess that's more entertaining for the sort of people who watch it. I am now going to say something. I don't care who you are, but just realise this. Trans people are being treated just like gays were 20 or 30 years ago. The media do this to sell papers, and make money. Rupert Murdoch is Australian, he's an immigrant, but his papers bang on about immigration. Fcking hypocrite. The demonisation of Trans people is just part of a large scale war by the right wing/neo nazi movement. Are any of you reading this wondering now? It's part of a nazi thing. Caring for children is one thing, but demonising a group of people who just happened to be so unlucky that they were born in the wrong body is another. Have a heart, people. No transgender person wants to hurt you, or your children. They are not dangerous to anyone, the women's toilets, shelters, changing rooms in clothes shops... This is the truth. You don't get the truth in the papers. The papers don't have anyone's best interest at heart, they are just trying to make money.

I've said what I needed to say. I came on Mumsnet cos I'd heard of it, and I wanted to see how people think. I've received quite a bit of abuse off people, quite nasty, and some questions about my level of intelligence. Don't worry, I'm intelligent, and I won't stoop to the level of insulting someone else for being different, or having different opinions.

I am a feminist. There, I said it. I would die to protect a woman. So how come so many so called feminists are against Trans women? Do you actually believe a Trans woman is going to rape you in the toilets? NEWS! Trans women don't hurt or kill women, MEN DO. Trans women are not men. No Trans woman wants to hurt you. It's just the sort of fcked up shtbag men that want to hurt you.

If anyone wants to comment on anything I wrote, feel free. Make it intelligent, no gratuitous abuse please X

OP, what makes a trans woman a woman? I am a woman because I born female and had female experiences, experiences based both on my biology (periods, child birth, migraines linked to my periods, etc) and society’s treatment of girls and women (so many instances of being cat-called, touched my random men, feeling menaced by strange men, having to be careful of walking alone, etc). How does a feeling a man has that he wishes to be perceived as a woman override our lived experiences? Woman is not a costume.

OP, nobody here hates transwomen. I know some transwomen. They are normal human beings. They've had a lot of hurdles and trauma too, as have I. But we don't actually have common traumas, they are separate but equally important.

Transwomen aren't evil, or bad, or all wronguns etc, they have suffered too. They deserve their own unique services tailored for their specific needs. I would happily march for that and sign any petition wanting that.

But I will protect biological women's rights too. Because they really, really are very important.

Compassion is a two way street.

Women by sex have had a lot forcibly imposed upon them in the last decade. Words have no meaning and nowhere is safe. Awards and positions intended for biological women are being given to biological men again. Women's sports are becoming men's sports.

There is no Compassion for biological women.

You aren't a woman, you are a trans woman. You have a penis. You do not belong in women's only spaces. JKR has encouraged many people to find their voice and is an amazing woman.

stop hating on trans women.

Please report any posts that you feel are transphobic. And most especially any that you feel ‘hate on’ trans people.

However, perhaps you can clarify whether you feel that women who disagree with you are ‘hating on’ you? Do you feel that any woman who does not simply believe your statements to be true, when they are unevidenced and not based in facts that pertain to a group of people, hates you?

Nobody on this thread knows you. I doubt anyone posting on this thread hates you. Speaking for myself, I don’t hate you. I don’t hate trans people.

If you actually want to discuss the things you have said you want to discuss, then do so.

It seems that you are seeking to emotionally manipulate people though. You have posted no proof to persuade us that as females we should trust that not one male who has transitioned wishes us harm.

@NiceGerbil

I find the position that-

Self ID must always be respected. A woman is anyone who says they are one.

It's impossible for any trans person to harm anyone.

The problem is men and not transwomen.

No man would ever say I'm s woman to get into female spaces

Startlingly naive.

This post sums up the way I feel perfectly. Also I think for a lot of kids being different and getting noticed by being different is a trend. I think a lot of kids are getting caught up in this whole trans thing and certain organisations having access to our schools has fuelled it even more. It’s very damaging and I hope by the time my children are older they will have moved on to the next trend.

Op your ramblings are very hard to follow and logically inconsistent.
Are you suggesting that there are no self-declared trans women that have harmed a woman? If so then you are factually wrong.
What are your thoughts on j k Rowling, out of interest?

Clearly you think there’s something that qualifies someone to be a woman other than being female. What?

Do you acknowledge that many women don’t have this ‘something’, and just are women because their bodies are female?

You are male. Your ideas of ‘woman’ are what you can see, read about, talk to others about, watch on screen. That’s very different from being landed with a female body and getting on with it!

The thing is, my transwomen friends aren't trying to take away from biological women.

They don't expect to insert themselves in biological women's safe spaces.

They don't agree with transwomen who have the benefit of male puberty being in women's sports.

And they are horrified that trans identifying sex offenders are being transferred in to women's prisons. Horrified that the judge found men's right trumped women's rights yet again.

The problem transwomen have are TRAs. Sending rape and death threats to women. Calling women transphobic because they sneezed funny.

TRAs regularly come on this board and attack us. Call us cis and deliberately inflame us, knowing that we have the right not to buy in to gender identity. They do it to provoke.

I'm not sure what your aim is however. You genuinely appear to be trying to appeal to us on a humanity front. Please try to do the same in return.

Imagine 5 men accosted you in a car park and took turns raping you until you bled. Its dark and your clothes are over your face. You can't see them, you can hear them and the pain. You are bruised and mentally broken. You wish you had died.

Imagine you then go to rape counselling after weeks of locking yourself in your house. Your first time leaving the house and you end up in a waiting room alone with a stranger who is a man. An innocent man.

How do you think that might feel as a weaker biological woman?

I can tell you if you want me to?

(Add in ‘adult’ and Human’ as needed, of course! Maybe you aren’t adult yet.)

Chickeny

OP - can you explain what it is that makes you a woman?

I am a woman. As a child, I had short hair and refused to wear skirts and dresses. I was puzzled by dolls and preferred to play with my brother’s meccano. My friends were all boys.

I am now a woman. I don’t have ‘womanly feelings’. I am indifferent at best to my body (would prefer to be slimmer). I work in an analytical role in a male-dominated profession. I rarely think about what I wear.

But walking home at night, I am fully aware of my lesser strength and feel fear when I hear a man (penis-haver to use inclusive language) behind me and relief when it is fellow woman (non penis-haver).

@Chickenyhead

The thing is, my transwomen friends aren't trying to take away from biological women.

They don't expect to insert themselves in biological women's safe spaces.

They don't agree with transwomen who have the benefit of male puberty being in women's sports.

And they are horrified that trans identifying sex offenders are being transferred in to women's prisons. Horrified that the judge found men's right trumped women's rights yet again.

The problem transwomen have are TRAs. Sending rape and death threats to women. Calling women transphobic because they sneezed funny.

TRAs regularly come on this board and attack us. Call us cis and deliberately inflame us, knowing that we have the right not to buy in to gender identity. They do it to provoke.

I'm not sure what your aim is however. You genuinely appear to be trying to appeal to us on a humanity front. Please try to do the same in return.

Imagine 5 men accosted you in a car park and took turns raping you until you bled. Its dark and your clothes are over your face. You can't see them, you can hear them and the pain. You are bruised and mentally broken. You wish you had died.

Imagine you then go to rape counselling after weeks of locking yourself in your house. Your first time leaving the house and you end up in a waiting room alone with a stranger who is a man. An innocent man.

How do you think that might feel as a weaker biological woman?

I can tell you if you want me to?

So sorry x Agree totally with your first few statements. There will be a large group of trans women living their lives and not demanding access to women's spaces. With a small number of exceptions, we don't really hear their voices. We hear from Jessica yaniv and others.

OP. Having read your posts you seem to be struggling. It is OK. It is fine to be a man and be accepted as you are. It is OK to be a man and like feminine things. That is fine. Men need to be kind and accepting and tolerant of gender non-conforming men.

Are you more angry that women will not simply welcome you to be just like them?

Or

Are you more angry that males, however they identify, continue to harm females?

Did you have this perception that transitioned males were not continuing to harm females? Did you honestly believe that women who disagreed with trans people’s reassurances that all was good, did so out of hatred?

Please stay and read the evidence we post. Read the other threads. Maybe you will discover that there is plenty of evidence for why people are concerned. And it is because male behaviour continues. Just as not all men are like that, not all transwomen are like that.

But enough ARE like that.

So yes, to speak to the males who are like that and get them to stop, please. But please stop telling us we are wrong.

More flowers chickeny. Although somewhat inadequate.

I'm a man and to me it just all seems like semantics. When trans women say "I'm a woman but not a biological woman" I don't get this because a biological woman is the definition of a woman and doesn't need the word 'biological' as a qualifier.

You could interchange the words 'dog' and 'cat' and say "see, my chihuahua is a cat now", but the chihuahua will still never meow. I saw it being discussed a while ago and one of the people debating it asked "ok, why can't I change into a 60 year old?". The obvious answer was because he isn't a 60yo.

I'm sure it would cause offence if I started calling myself 'trans'....but not the original type of trans. A new type of trans where I'm happy in my male body, but still trans. It wouldn't matter that the original definition of trans is something else. This is new trans and only a bigot would deny me my freedom of gender expression or tell me I'm not trans.

I really don't have any prejudice against any individual or group, but a lot of this gender theory is just utter nonsense.

A new type of trans where I'm happy in my male body, but still trans.

I think there are quite a few twitter profiles you should see. And at least one male who goes into schools to talk about being a lesbian. I won’t mention their name because that will mean the post is deleted.

It is not a new thing you have proposed by any means.

@Helleofabore

More flowers chickeny. Although somewhat inadequate.

I don't ever share that one. Too painful.

The man was at a different appointment. I ran. Luckily my rape counselling was safe, biological women only back then. I wouldn't go now.

I am interested to read your posts, OP, but again, will point out that they are heavy on emotions, focusing on your feelings, and very light on facts and evidence.

Jkr posted a load of crap? That doesn't work here - not because we blindly follow what our contemporaries tell us but because we read it ourselves and agreed with it - you will have to specify what is 'crap' and then provide evidence to back up your claims.

I feel sorry for the fact that there are hardships in your life - I am not sure where you are based or how old you are? But in the UK, transgender people have all the rights of any other group in law, and many are respected, and loved for who they are. I have trans family members and colleagues. On the whole transitioning is a blessing for them. I am not sure what else you think we should be giving them, unless you mean our own, sex based rights.

I think if we are saying things you find upsetting your best bet is to take some self care time out. However, we are not going to change what we say to stop upsetting you.

I've not read your entire post. Got as far as GPs getting a bonus every time they diagnose someone with 'diabetes'

What bollocks

This is the thing, Nefelibata33. In some situations any male presence, even that of a perfectly pleasant stranger, can be deeply distressing to women. Your personal inner identity isn’t really the point, to those women.

Actually, OP, I find your posts quite aggressive with your 'tough shit' comments, and a bit threatening in general, which is the way many, many men who wish to be seen as women come across, so perhaps you should be kind, instead. Why have you posted, if not to try and force us into submission?

Transwomen are by definition, male. Males with offending rates which do not decrease after transition. In current prison stats, they are in fact more likely to be incarcerated for violent or sexual crime than other men. So by all means, don't conform with male stereotypes, but stop harping on about TWAW and don't do those things. They do. Extensively. Whether or not they have any kind of actual transition. Which most don't. Like yourself, it sounds like.

Even if they didn't offend this way, women are entitled to name ourselves as a sex class, whether you like it or not.

TW have different physical requirements to women; as other men. Healthcare, cancers, drug doses, mental healthcare issues. Trying to erase your maleness is not only stupid, not only harmful to women, but harmful to YOU.

Not only this, but transition is harmful. Harmful to droves of children who should be left to develop normally before being swept up in medicalisation. We don't castrate puppies because it's harmful. We wait until they have reached a level of maturity for their physical and emotional well-being. Medical transition does not reduce suicide or suicidal ideation.

You know all this. That's why you've come here with another be kind post, no facts, no evidence, and made dangerous assertions about healthcare (imagine telling a diabetic not to listen to their doctor and thinking you are the kind ones) as some sort of weird backup to an outright lie.

Luckily my rape counselling was safe, biological women only back then. I wouldn't go now.

It is no consolation at all, I know, but knowing my best friends history is what made me realise that simply being kind completely excluded her from the facilities she needs still, over 30 years on.

It is what makes me so confused as to how other women can believe ‘be kind’ and ‘it doesn’t happen’.

OK, so I have a penis. Just wanted to share that with you, though there's absolutely no reason why anyone should ever know what's down there. Absolutely, as a feminist, I don't think I am doing anything wrong here.
It is important to know what's "down there" depending on the circumstances. In what way are you a feminist, centring natal women and adult human female rights?

but shouldn't all women feel some sort of feeling for each other? All women? No.

JK Rowling posted a load of crap. Did you read what she wrote? Which bits were "crap"?

Seriously, do you believe that? Trans women are NOT men. Humans cannot change sex, and it is impossible to be born in the wrong body.

Sorry if that insults you, but the world is changing, if you can't handle it, tough shit.

You can chance your arm, but the fact of binary human reproduction - one female and one male - isn't changing and won't change. You can complain all you'd like but you won't get far.

The sad thing is that men can't ever be themselves. It's not allowed.
If this is true then it's up to men to sort themselves out - I am not any man's support human.

We need less hatred, more tolerance, love, acceptance.
It seems that this doesn't nold for natal women, for example with your comment Trans women are NOT men. If you believe that, you've got no fcking clue, and you don't know what you're talking about.* making it rather clear what you think of adult human females.

I don't hate transwomen, you're welcome to live your life as you wish. But I won't lie about reality and I won't let my sex-based rights be removed in order to validate a man's feelings.

I'm starting to get the impression that trans women aren't desperately trying to be seen as women, rather they are desperately trying not to be grouped with men. Op you seem to really hate men and the social constraints that are being put on men re their emotions. I urge you to be the change from within your sex group, rather than cross to the other side. That's what being gender critical is BTW. Your posts have been eye opening to me but not in the way you intended. I also hope you are OK, your posts read very much as though you are not.