Veronica Ivy (formerly Rachel McKinnon) on why it is right for trans olympians to compete

[ScreamingMeMe]

I can't believe The Economist published this crap, but here you go:

www.economist.com/by-invitation/2021/07/27/veronica-ivy-on-why-it-is-right-for-trans-olympians-to-compete

I suspect Hubbard won't win for this very reason.

Personally, I hope she does, by miles, and in fact I hope she breaks a world record in doing so. At least they won't be able to pretend it hasn't happened.

By the way, you should all have a look at last night's semis (and tonight's finals) of the mixed swimming medley relay. Each team has two men and two women, swimming in various orders.

All the athlete's are top of their various events. The male-female contrast is stark.

I've said it before but I think we are very much being played with the choices of TW that are competing at the games. They seem to have been carefully picked to set the precedent without sparking mass outrage - they are in minority/ lower profile events, they are unlikely to win/ get on the podium, they are in non contact sports so no nasty injuries to explain away, they are mostly in events that favour strong/ tall women so there is less visual contrast. It's almost as if they have been carefully selected so the TRAs can say our concerns are invalid, there is no danger, there is no physical advantage, there is no mass public outcry (because people aren't allowed to point out that there is a man competing in the female category) and the IOC can pat itself on the back, say that went jolly well, we were right to be inclusive. The TWs in Tokyo are sheep in wolves clothing they aren't the threat to women sports that we fear because they are too old, too new to their sport or just generally not good enough to succeed even in the wrong category but these are just the Trojan horses, they are there to sneak through the games largely unnoticed, without stirring up a huge fuss, to silence the desenting voices. Paris will be a whole different ball game.

I think you are absolutely right.

Laurel Hubbard is 20 years older than most of the other competitors in their category!

I think it is all being very carefully orchestrated.

This is from the athletics mixed 4x400 relay. It shows the obvious differences very clearly from 7:58

I would not stoop to conspiracy theories like saying "they are hand-picked".

The fact that so few TW are currently competing is a) it is still relatively short while ago that no surgery is necessary, b) the talent pool is still tiny, and c) only in the last few years has the TRA movement really gained momentum.

But yes, the "they don't dominate so there is no advantage" is such an insidious lie. Such an easy soundbite but takes time to lay out properly. Reminds me of conservative talking points, it's how people like Ben Shapiro used to argue, say one thing that at face value is true and then ran with it, with people being stuck on the first statement and believing everything, and it taking effort to untangle.

I've seen that before, andy, and yes - it's absolutely laid out in stark terms in the final leg. The Polish female athlete has absolutely zero chance against her male competitor, who just breezes past her as she's working flat-out.

There's going to be a mixed relay at the Olympics too. Heats tomorrow, I think?

(Re Veronica Ivy - there may have been some consulting of a gardening manual going on. 'Veronica' is also known as 'speedwell' . Think I'll stick with Ronnie for now).

@MrGHardy I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories but I know how great the male sporting advantage is over females so I find it hard to believe that with more than one TW taking part we aren't seeing that advantage in action. It may be coincidence that TW at the games are not beating the women they are up against hands down but where are the young fit TWs who raced Chelsea in Connecticut? Why are the aging Hubbard and the inexperienced Barrett there while TWs in their 20's aren't given that they would qualify very easily?

I have no idea if there is any kind of strategy from eg Canada.

Thing is-

Trans ID is personal isn't it. While the IOC will have to know to do tests etc. Surely the decision on whether to go public is up to the athlete.

I tried to find out but couldn't find anything on IOC site etc. I would put money on that being the case though.

So I don't think anyone has any idea really. Certainly there has been and is speculation over some athletes but I mean who knows.

Re talent pool being tiny. That's of people who have internal ID of trans and are v good at sport I assume.

Thing is it's a massive loophole and some countries will do anything to win.

Doping generally sometimes it seems without the athletes knowledge.
East Germany and the women who were put on testosterone with no care for future health issues etc. I'm not sure that the women knew, I wouldn't be at all surprised if not.
Etc.

To compete in female cat you need to have testosterone below a certain level for a year.
The level is within the lower range of normal for men and 3x higher than normal for women.

The testosterone norms for males have a lot of studies etc saying they are not representative/ need looking at again but that's another thread.

Point is that countries who will do anything to win can and will-
Find males with talent who have naturally low testosterone (I suspect that exist, studies mentioned say norm is too narrow and lower is normal for enough men to make lower range lower)
And/ or find those who are good at sport but not quite good enough for the men's, who will for whatever reward/ coercion etc agree to lower T for X years (5 maybe or whatever - it wouldn't need to be forever) to compete for the country in the women's events.

That is just OBVIOUSLY going to happen.

So. All in all. Not good.

Oh and I have seen something... On here linked. Where it was discussed that some trans competitors throwing their events would help. Not sure which competition etc.

Hubbard is twice the age of the other lifters and has been injured.

They may well not win. And then- see it's fine!

And then, who knows who will come next.

With the IOC saying that yes male puberty is an advantage but with determination, psychological strength etc there's other things in the mix so. Doesn't matter.

And that while competing is important so is inclusion...

At the Olympics?! For elite amazing athletes who work and work etc to come and win! Winning is not actually the point of the Olympics. Apparently...

Yeah it's all just shit for women.

The fact that so few TW are currently competing is a) it is still relatively short while ago that no surgery is necessary, b) the talent pool is still tiny, and c) only in the last few years has the TRA movement really gained momentum.

Plus d) you need an epic level of shamelessness. If not McKinnon-level, not far off.

Can anyone here imagine doing something so blatantly wrong, on a national stage?

I like to think that the vast majority of potentially-qualifying individuals are decent people and wouldn't dream of taking advantage of the rules.

[quote Runningupthecurtains]@MrGHardy I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories but I know how great the male sporting advantage is over females so I find it hard to believe that with more than one TW taking part we aren't seeing that advantage in action. It may be coincidence that TW at the games are not beating the women they are up against hands down but where are the young fit TWs who raced Chelsea in Connecticut? Why are the aging Hubbard and the inexperienced Barrett there while TWs in their 20's aren't given that they would qualify very easily?[/quote]
Not one of the Connecticut ones I think, but CeCe Telfer was ineligible for the Olympics due to testosterone levels:

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jun/24/cece-telfer-transgender-runner-olympic-trials

Just to reiterate that I would put money on trans athletes being under no obligation to be open about it to the general public.

I don't think we can have any idea how many trans athletes are there.

[quote Runningupthecurtains]@MrGHardy I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories but I know how great the male sporting advantage is over females so I find it hard to believe that with more than one TW taking part we aren't seeing that advantage in action. It may be coincidence that TW at the games are not beating the women they are up against hands down but where are the young fit TWs who raced Chelsea in Connecticut? Why are the aging Hubbard and the inexperienced Barrett there while TWs in their 20's aren't given that they would qualify very easily?[/quote]
Because they aren't good enough. If you are 290th in college as a dude, you aren't good enough to beat the top women. There are literally thousands of men faster than that so not surprising that 1 year of HRT (yes it doesn't negate the whole advantage but it does reduce it a little) means you won't beat the very best women in the world. Like, I think at some point Serena would beat a man, be it inside the top 1'000 or if it is top 2'000 or top 5'000.

In other sports it may be different, where pure strength is more important (weightlifting), but for many sports, you still need to be decent enough to beat the top 99.999999% (i.e. 1 in 100 million) of women.

And again-

I am 99.9% certain there is no obligation to disclose trans status to the general public.

So we don't actually know.

Countries who want to win at all costs will find males who are just off the best males though.

And then incentivise/ coerce them to compete with the women. They only need to suppress testosterone for a handful of years.

Obviously it's going to happen.

CeCe Telfer probably wouldn't have made the Olympics anyway. Personal Best is 57.34 (though big caveat, I can find no results post 2019) which is 115th fastest time in 2021.

Of course this is still a huge jump, from 290th in college in the US to 115th overall in the world and shows the clear advantage.

@TurquoiseBaubles

I suspect Hubbard won't win for this very reason.

Personally, I hope she does, by miles, and in fact I hope she breaks a world record in doing so. At least they won't be able to pretend it hasn't happened.

By the way, you should all have a look at last night's semis (and tonight's finals) of the mixed swimming medley relay. Each team has two men and two women, swimming in various orders.

All the athlete's are top of their various events. The male-female contrast is stark.

Compare Freya Anderson and Ben Proud - both similar height and free swimmers. Ben is 5 seconds faster over 100m and well over 3 seconds faster over 50m.

MrG

I think Telfer’s entry time for the Olympic Trial was 57.53.

Way off the times of the best women (as in adult human female).

So mediocre male still can’t beat the women.

www.usatf.org/events/2021/2020-u-s-olympic-team-trials-track-field/status-of-entries

Yes, but that does not mean CeCe has no advantage, that time is 141st fastest this year for women in the world. That is still a far cry above 290th in college in the US.

In the US for example it is 31st, for all women, not just college. Although this also shows the whole announcement was just attention seeking - CeCe without a doubt knew the testosterone levels were too high, and with the 31st fastest time there was no chance in hell to go through the trials. Pure attention seeking.

I suppose this whole thing is seen differently depending on-

Whether you believe that only 'genuine' trans people will enter. So it's those who are transwomen, and also very good at sport. And who also don't mind all the attention/speculation/don't see it as not fair on the women/ aren't worried about being outed etc etc
In other words, a tiny subset of a tiny population

Or
Whether you believe that countries and individuals will exploit this 'loophole'. Being an Olympic champion is a pretty massive incentive. Even having qualified for Olympics on CV. And it is an experience very few people get to experience.

In the first case I think even those who think it's a bit iffy, can justify in their head with. Inclusion of very oppressed group + so few in numbers it's no massive deal.

As with so much on this topic real life is totally ignored.

That countries and individuals will do all sorts of things to advance themselves.
Similar to.
Self ID is fine because only 'genuine' trans people will do it and they're a very vulnerable group and hardly any and very shy etc so no problem.

Yes, but that does not mean CeCe has no advantage, that time is 141st fastest this year for women in the world. That is still a far cry above 290th in college in the US.

Absolutely.

And yet still a mediocre male (with all the benefits of male puberty) in the female category. They were excluded from the trials because they couldn’t comply with the T levels, which begs the question was that 57.53 time achieved with male T levels?

CeCe has won plenty of big deal stuff at uni etc.

The Olympics is the top of the top.

The impact matters all the way through the chain though.

Even a Saturday competitor wants to win iyswim.

No idea on the rules in USA for uni etc.

The famous runners were certainly not on blockers etc when running the races that led to their positions as top notch women.

"The impact matters all the way through the chain though."

This, they are already saying "I can see it for professionals, but who cares for amateurs" or they argue that there you don't see a difference (well yea, a 50th percentile male can compete against say 80th percentile female and you won't see a difference). But I would say it is there where it's even worse. Not just the injury in rugby, but the fact alone that some loser male is barging in, taking a spot, making it difficult for women. I think it is almost for for amateurs / hobby sportspeople.