Veronica Ivy (formerly Rachel McKinnon) on why it is right for trans olympians to compete

[ScreamingMeMe]

I can't believe The Economist published this crap, but here you go:

www.economist.com/by-invitation/2021/07/27/veronica-ivy-on-why-it-is-right-for-trans-olympians-to-compete

On the thread about basketball. I just thought that probably trans status is only disclosed if the athlete wants to.

So who knows.

I didn't even know that RMcK had changed names!
'The ways that matter'. But no one EVER lists what those ways are. And if they ever did, none of us here would agree.

I remember when McKinnon wrote in the NYTimes about how she had demanded a hug from her opponent, a woman who would have come in first had McKinnon not felt such an entitlement to female sport, and apparently the woman didn't hug McKinnon back in a warm enough way so McKinnon was "insulted."

Not only are the women supposed to accept second place, they are to submit to unwanted physical touching.

I have no good words for McKinnon. I'm sure many transwomen can't stand McKinnon either. Just a despicable person.

In the leaked performance review, Ivy/McKinnon's former uni discredited their thesis about trans people in sport, saying something along the lines that Ivy/McKinnon had failed to prove their hypothesis.

Might be worth sending to the Economist to show that Ivy/McKinnon is not the expert they claim to be.

@howard97A In the third paragraph of Dr Ivy's Economist piece there is a list of transgender athletes taking part in the current Olympics, with one omission that I am aware of.

Fair play to the Economist for allowing McKinnon to provide their own sunlight in such a public way.

Maybe McKinnon changed name to pretend these tweets were noting to do with someone called Veronica ivy? You know you've gone low when even Harrop is appalled by you.

So are women, women in ways that don't matter?

Trans men seem to compete in women's sports as far as I can tell.

@MattDamon

In the leaked performance review, Ivy/McKinnon's former uni discredited their thesis about trans people in sport, saying something along the lines that Ivy/McKinnon had failed to prove their hypothesis.

Might be worth sending to the Economist to show that Ivy/McKinnon is not the expert they claim to be.

And seriously lacking in common sense, let alone critical thinking. As Ivy Mac leaked it themselves!

I doubt that there would be trans women in women's gymnastics. Only in sports where having a biologically male body is an advantage

What I don't get and would be really interested to know is do transgender athletes like VI feel true pride or guilt when they win a gold. Have they really brainwashed themselves into thinking it's a genuine win?

The irony that McKinnon's thesis was named "why you don't need to know what you're talking about".

It says "transgender women are women in the ways that matter."

Blokes deciding the ways in which being a woman 'matter' and which don't.

Argh, just fuck off! How can anyone think this whole thing is anything other than utter misogyny and male domination? It's so fucking obvious, argh!

The quality of argument and absence of supporting facts is just appalling.

And as for those 300 trans people Rachel/ Ivy wants to see in the Olympics, all of those would be transwomen (apart from perhaps a tiny number in sports where sex is not a factor, like perhaps show jumping or something where the athlete is a horse). Lets face it - this is not about trans people in the Olympics, its about transwomen. Because transmen can't compete at the level that men do.
A simple fact that shows who is being done over here. It ain't the men.

I think once the statistics start to show eg why such a small proportion of the population gain medals then something might be done... but I'm imagining these changes 20 years or more down the line. Also, those who are trans in 20 years time will have a different experience (maybe having puberty blockers) so who knows, it may not be such a problem. It will be interesting to see how it develops over time

Trans women are women in the ways that matter to transwomen like McKinnon. I.e. all the things they can achieve and not the things they can’t.

What happens with non-binary people in sport out of interest? Do they get put with their sex?

Absolutely ohfuckitall. If this was “fair play” then we’d see the same numbers of trans men winning/competing against men at all levels and in the same sports. The unfairness is clear to see. The female sex overall ends up with fewer places, wins and sports careers.

@sleepyhoglet

I doubt that there would be trans women in women's gymnastics. Only in sports where having a biologically male body is an advantage

Google it. You'd be surprised. I was!

@sleepyhoglet

I think once the statistics start to show eg why such a small proportion of the population gain medals then something might be done... but I'm imagining these changes 20 years or more down the line. Also, those who are trans in 20 years time will have a different experience (maybe having puberty blockers) so who knows, it may not be such a problem. It will be interesting to see how it develops over time

So you can accept that generations of women will be blocked from elite places in sport?

That would take untold decades to put right - see how long it took womens football to come back after the post war ban!

And, as we have repeatedly seen, the disproportionate number in some sports is down to the deliberate scouting for likely candidates, fast tracking them past all the females in sport.

@CuriousaboutSamphire bloody hell no of course I don't accept it but the olympic committee seems completely unphased by the shit it allows. Watched a documentary about paraplympians and it was shocking how they can reclassify the disability levels. It's a joke that this is sport allegedly at the highest level. I was merely speculating that we are at an interesting stage and that it could get better or worse in the future but I don't know which way.

What happens with non-binary people in sport out of interest? Do they get put with their sex?

Yes, 'Non-binary' gets a lot of coverage now, particularly when it comes to reasons for using 'menstruators, birthing bodies, vulva people' instead of 'women'.

But not so much in sport funnily enough, because the idea of non-binary there just isn't useful in an area where there clearly are 2 very binary categories. So non-binary people are irrelevant in that particular arena and you won't hear about them at all.

@sleepyhoglet

I doubt that there would be trans women in women's gymnastics. Only in sports where having a biologically male body is an advantage

I think you might well be surprised by this.

But you would think that a person could compete on say a women's rugby team and also, perhaps once well into their career, identify as non-binary. In that case it would make no sense for them to suddenly swap to the men's category so you'd expect them to stay where they are, and the same if they were male on a male team.

Re that gymnastic video, there's no reason why men shouldn't do those disciplines, is there - just in their own sex categories. Watching them it seems odd that there is such a male / female division in types of gynmastics, aside from moves that would hurt particular body parts.

I'm not sure anymore whether I am a woman in the ways that matter, because yes I have had children, am genetically xx etc, but I do not recognise cis etc.

I mean, what am I?