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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Veronica Ivy (formerly Rachel McKinnon) on why it is right for trans olympians to compete

152 replies

ScreamingMeMe · 27/07/2021 20:59

I can't believe The Economist published this crap, but here you go:

www.economist.com/by-invitation/2021/07/27/veronica-ivy-on-why-it-is-right-for-trans-olympians-to-compete

OP posts:
jhuizinga · 28/07/2021 18:57

Thanks, Running. My assumption about Chelsea's article was correct!

DoctorTwo · 28/07/2021 19:09

@TurquoiseBaubles

I see this is yet another topic we aren't allowed to talk about Hmm
"If you cannot describe reality, how the hell are you supposed to defend your rights?" Magdalen Berns who would've hated women's sports being invaded.
FloralBunting · 28/07/2021 19:28

Why would I give a stuff about the opinions of a paunchy cheat whose crowning achievement is a glorified sixth form essay on how to blag your way through when you're a total ignoramus?

Runningupthecurtains · 28/07/2021 19:34

@FloralBunting

Why would I give a stuff about the opinions of a paunchy cheat whose crowning achievement is a glorified sixth form essay on how to blag your way through when you're a total ignoramus?
Floral this is a safe space, no need to sit on the fence, you can tell us how you really feel if you want Wink
FloralBunting · 28/07/2021 19:44

If I'm sure of anything, it's that FWR readers always know exactly what I think. Wink

StrangeLookingParasite · 28/07/2021 20:25

@FloralBunting

Why would I give a stuff about the opinions of a paunchy cheat whose crowning achievement is a glorified sixth form essay on how to blag your way through when you're a total ignoramus?
Oh this is such a lovely succinct summary.
BeReet · 28/07/2021 21:07

@FloralBunting

Why would I give a stuff about the opinions of a paunchy cheat whose crowning achievement is a glorified sixth form essay on how to blag your way through when you're a total ignoramus?
Absolutely spot on 👌
Chickenyhead · 28/07/2021 21:36

Oh I don't know, they did beat a bunch of women as the only male by sex in a women's cycling race.

That should count for something?

(NOT sure it's positive)

lionheart · 28/07/2021 21:41

More on that Olympic level misgendering.

www.vice.com/en/article/7kvdyy/alana-smith-quinn-non-binary-olympics-athletes-misgendered-pronouns

Ekofisk · 28/07/2021 21:55

Hmm, maybe “misgendering” is a good distraction from “piss poor performance“.

Chickenyhead · 28/07/2021 21:57

Yer same with Barrett, they're out too.

Jackgrealishscurtains · 28/07/2021 22:04

From that Vice article:

Non-binary visibility on the biggest stage in sports is a huge deal, and going into the Games, many fans wondered how the media would fare in covering the non-binary athletes.

Really? That was what 'many fans' were wondering?

Yeah, I mean I just haven't been able to sleep at night worrying about this stuff. Forget Simone Biles, forget Tom Daley - the big news is that a female athlete competing in the female sports category was called 'she/her' by the commentators! Shock

What planet are these people on?

Chickenyhead · 28/07/2021 22:53

They aren't on a planet, they are a shining star at the centre of the universe dyk

FemaleAndLearning · 28/07/2021 23:21
So this is a transman competing with women. So why aren't transwomen competing with men?
BlackeyedSusan · 28/07/2021 23:24

one thing is for sure, veronica is not a gardener as ivy is rather an invasive species that gets into places it shouldn't and can do a lot of damage. (see: my neighbour planted ivy on my fence thread.) not to mention poison ivy in American films.

One would have thought they would have been more careful about their choice of name.

FemaleAndLearning · 28/07/2021 23:41

I didn't know the USA had a transwomen in their team. Quoted as saying this:
"When she became public in 2014, Wolfe said most of her fellow riders welcomed her, though some tried to undermine her, viewing her biological sex as an unfair advantage."
Undermined her is a telling phrase.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9701947/amp/BMX-rider-Chelsea-Wolfe-Team-USAs-transgender-Olympian.html

Veronica Ivy (formerly Rachel McKinnon) on why it is right for trans olympians to compete
FemaleAndLearning · 28/07/2021 23:46

Sorry doesn't look like Wolfe is in the official list of athletes at the Olympics.

Chickenyhead · 29/07/2021 00:01

She's a reserve

Helleofabore · 29/07/2021 00:03

I believe Wolfe is a ‘reserve’. Not sure of the official title. They will only compete if another from the team cannot compete.

It still means that another female has missed out of that opportunity. To get the experience of just being at the Olympics as something to inspire them to continue to compete to get there next time.

AlfonsoTheMango · 29/07/2021 08:36

@BlackeyedSusan

one thing is for sure, veronica is not a gardener as ivy is rather an invasive species that gets into places it shouldn't and can do a lot of damage. (see: my neighbour planted ivy on my fence thread.) not to mention poison ivy in American films.

One would have thought they would have been more careful about their choice of name.

There are many things that Veronica is not!
CallMeNutribullet · 29/07/2021 08:38

Of course McKinnon had to change their name to something slightly less ordinary, and by less ordinary I meant they sound like a porn star now

Runningupthecurtains · 29/07/2021 08:50

@Ekofisk

Hmm, maybe “misgendering” is a good distraction from “piss poor performance“.
I've said it before but I think we are very much being played with the choices of TW that are competing at the games. They seem to have been carefully picked to set the precedent without sparking mass outrage - they are in minority/ lower profile events, they are unlikely to win/ get on the podium, they are in non contact sports so no nasty injuries to explain away, they are mostly in events that favour strong/ tall women so there is less visual contrast. It's almost as if they have been carefully selected so the TRAs can say our concerns are invalid, there is no danger, there is no physical advantage, there is no mass public outcry (because people aren't allowed to point out that there is a man competing in the female category) and the IOC can pat itself on the back, say that went jolly well, we were right to be inclusive. The TWs in Tokyo are sheep in wolves clothing they aren't the threat to women sports that we fear because they are too old, too new to their sport or just generally not good enough to succeed even in the wrong category but these are just the Trojan horses, they are there to sneak through the games largely unnoticed, without stirring up a huge fuss, to silence the desenting voices. Paris will be a whole different ball game.
Imnobody4 · 29/07/2021 09:12

Runningupthecurtains
You're absolutely right.

TheHandmadeTails · 29/07/2021 12:55

Yes I’ve been thinking that. If it was a TW stood next to eg Laura Trott/Jess Ennis Hill in the UK at least there’d be lots more coverage and outrage - reasonably well known and conventionally attractive/photogenic (I hate to mention it but I’m just being realistic about how they are viewed by media and public etc). Though even they aren’t contact sports.

Runningupthecurtains · 29/07/2021 14:01

I think it has been very carefully orchestrated. If half a dozen TW had taken part and all won then the obvious advantage argument would be hard to counter. If the first thing people saw was a 6'4" muscular guy kicking a natal women unconscious in Taekwondo there would be outrage and the this is bloody dangerous argument would out. I really don't think it is coincidence that the TW who are at the games aren't walking away with gold medals it feels very deliberate to me.