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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

8,000 civil servants to be asked to include pronouns in email sign-offs

158 replies

RedRobin20 · 27/07/2021 00:59

The link is below, as is a copy of the text from the full Telegraph article. I never thought that I would be a Telegraph subscriber but their journalism has been much more trusthworthy on this issue (and I wonder therefore whether it is more open on other issues too). This is going too far. In trying to be inclusive of this 1% of the population, nearly 60% are left feeling alienated and some in tears over it, leaving themselves open to sex discrimination.

My eyes have been opened this year. I reflexively was on board with the TRAs as I considered myself a progressive, open minded and liberal person. Then I realised how regressive, hateful and deceptive the TRA lobby is and how heavily it relies on stifling open discussion around safeguarding women, children and gay/lesbians. It wasn’t until reading the intelligent, compassionate and considered discussion on these boards that I had realised the harm being done. I’ve bought and distributed close to 10 of Helen Joyce’s books, and I’m starting conversations about this with family and friends it is becoming clear how many are GC when the discussion is brought to light (instead of just stifling it all as ‘no debate’, conflating the “trans rights” issues with previous civil rights movements and dismissing any GCs as bigots).

Sorry, too tired to type coherently about all this as there is just too much to say and it’s the end of a long day. I just wanted to thank all of you and hope that 2021 is the year that the tide turns on all of this.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/07/26/scottish-civil-servants-asked-include-pronouns-email-sign-offs/

Thousands of civil servants are to be encouraged to add pronouns to their email sign-offs under plans for a transgender inclusivity drive, despite a backlash from staff.

^The Scottish Government is backing proposals that would ask its 8,000 workers to take a “pronoun pledge” under which they would add terms reflecting their gender identity, such as she/her or he/him, to signatures at the bottom of every work email.

Some people who class themselves as non-binary prefer pronouns such as they/them, while others prefer “non standard” terms such as “zie” or “zir”, which civil servants would be free to use.

Supporters of the plan to “normalise the inclusion” of pronouns have said this would “foster an open culture that is supportive of the LGBTI+ community”.

However, the plan has provoked opposition from civil servants, after an internal survey set up to gauge opinion provoked a row which left some workers in tears.

Almost 60 per cent did not want to add pronouns to their emails, the results showed.

Meanwhile, campaigners raised fears that workers could feel pressurised to comply with the “stupid” and “authoritarian” policy, which has been backed by the Scottish Government but is yet to be rolled out.

Comments written by workers expressing concerns alongside the internal poll were dismissed as “disappointing” by Leslie Evans, Scotland's top civil servant, in a meeting with staff last month.

Documents released on Monday under Freedom of Information legislation show Ms Evans told staff in a Q&A session that “what we write around our name” could be “good and helpful” and said inclusivity policies could be overhauled.

However, Trina Budge, director of the For Women Scotland campaign group, described the pronoun push as “deeply stupid” and accused the Scottish Government of displaying “controlling, illiberal and authoritarian tendencies”.

“A recent poll showed the majority of civil servants were against this move and it is sad, but not surprising, to see Ms Evans disregard this,” she said.

“In forging ahead with this or any associated coerced signing of a pledge, the Scottish Government would, potentially, be discriminating against a protected belief and also inviting sex discrimination.

“It is further evidence that this Government only pretends to consult or openly discuss, and ditches any views which conflict with their predetermined policies.”

A bitter debate has erupted in Scotland about the issue of transgender rights, with Nicola Sturgeon in favour of changing the law to make it far easier for people to legally change their own gender.

Advocates of the changes believe current rules, which require medical reports and for someone to live in their preferred gender for two years, are too onerous and contribute to high levels of mental health problems in the trans community.

Some feminists, including Harry Potter author JK Rowling, strongly oppose the changes, believing they would erode women’s rights and potentially place them at risk in women-only spaces such as prisons and changing rooms.

The survey set up by supporters of the pronoun pledge found that only 17 per cent of more than 3,000 staff at the Government and its quangos who responded said they already used pronouns on email signatures. A quarter said they did not but might in future while 58 per cent said they did not and probably wouldn't.

Many trans and non-binary people introduce themselves with their preferred pronouns, so others know how they wish to be addressed. Some equality groups argue that even for people who are not trans or non-binary, adding pronouns to emails can be an important sign of inclusion towards those who are.

The comments made by some staff left other workers “in tears”, Joe Griffin, a director general in the Scottish Government, said.

He called for “empathy on both sides” of the debate and added: “Nobody in a workplace environment should have the fundamental aspect of their identity challenged.”

It was planned that a follow-up survey would run in September, to measure the impact of the initiative.

A Scottish government spokeswoman said: “It is an individual’s choice whether to include their pronouns in introductions and email signatures.

“The Scottish Government is making progress towards our ambition to be a world leading, diverse employer where people can be themselves at work, with a workforce that reflects the diversity of the people of Scotland.

“As an employer we are committed to a progressive approach to advancing LGBTI equality. We encourage any action that makes people feel included and respected in our organisation.”^

OP posts:
MajesticWhine · 27/07/2021 18:04

You've let Stonewall down, you've let the civil service down, and most of all you've let zeirselves down'

@ArabellaScott GrinGrinGrin

JustcameoutGC · 27/07/2021 18:07

If forced to I am going old school, /thy/thyself.

Jackgrealishscurtains · 27/07/2021 18:08

It really does feel like the pronoun thing is about power play - getting people to do what you want.

Why the fuck would anyone care otherwise, honestly?

Plus the fact that it disadvantages women to draw attention to the fact that they are female (and that they have capitulated to demands) is a nice little add on too.

Ifyourefeelingsinister · 27/07/2021 18:10

Of course it's Scotland again, what a surprise. Surely this can't be enforceable?Although obviously it sounds as if not doing so will mark you out as a dangerous transphobe.

Mummyoflittledragon · 27/07/2021 18:31

Ffs. The Sanctimonious Nicola Party does not represent women.

Namechangeforthis88 · 27/07/2021 19:00

Although comments weren't an option on that poll, there have been a couple of articles on SG civil service intranet on the topic, with the option of comments. Anything with the remotest hint of gender critical thinking, or even mentioning women's rights was deleted "for moderators to review" and never reappeared. This would suggest it was considered offensive and transphobic. I dare not share my thoughts openly with colleagues. I find it quite sinister.

dementedma · 27/07/2021 19:18

I work in Scotland am classed as a Crown Servant, but follow all the Civil Service rules. I will categorically refuse to do this if asked and yes, it is a hill I will die on.

Nonmaquillee · 27/07/2021 19:21

Yet again very happy not to live in Scotland,

AndNoneForGretchenWieners · 27/07/2021 19:33

I don't know about any other civil servants on the thread but I knew I had made it when I got promoted to SEO and got my hat stand!

But no, shan't be partaking in this bolleaux.

Lottiethelemming · 27/07/2021 19:54

I'm a Civil Servant and I can see this coming in my department. If I'm asked to do so, would it be OK to say 'I'm happy to be misgendered'?

ArabellaScott · 27/07/2021 19:54

@dementedma

I work in Scotland am classed as a Crown Servant, but follow all the Civil Service rules. I will categorically refuse to do this if asked and yes, it is a hill I will die on.
Brew
nauticant · 27/07/2021 19:56

That likely would elicit the response that a workplace where anyone can be misgendered presents a significan risk to trans people which is why gender declarations are important. Thus casting you either as part of the problem or, if you comply, as part of the solution.

Aparallaxia · 27/07/2021 19:59

Just a suggestion:

'If you want me to state my pronouns, I will do so if you state your religious beliefs if any, ethnic identity, political beliefs, sexual orientation, medical conditions, mental health conditions, disability status, schooling, and your parent’s /parents’ or guardian’s/guardians’ and your own annual income and total investments. I do this on the grounds that without them it is impossible to make privilege-based evaluations of folxx's moral right to have opinions on different subjects.'

16HamstersCalledThemAllDave · 27/07/2021 20:02

I have a relative who is non-binary and decides every day if it's a 'female' or a 'male' day. How would that work with pronouns? Genuine question. Would the email signature have to be updated on a daily basis?

SheldonesqueTheBstard · 27/07/2021 20:02

Thank you Aparallaxia

I think that could be useful.

BadgertheBodger · 27/07/2021 20:10

This is just ridiculous. It’s an email signature not a sodding babycentre profile tag

rosy71 · 27/07/2021 20:13

Many trans and non-binary people introduce themselves with their preferred pronouns, so others know how they wish to be addressed

I can never understand this. People don't address you as she/he ever.

WhereYouLeftIt · 27/07/2021 20:18

@16HamstersCalledThemAllDave

I have a relative who is non-binary and decides every day if it's a 'female' or a 'male' day. How would that work with pronouns? Genuine question. Would the email signature have to be updated on a daily basis?
And what if you didn't respond to them on the same day? Would you be misgendering them with their own email signature?
nauticant · 27/07/2021 20:22

The point is that people won't know the relevant status as the particular moment in time and will always makes blunders. Which means it's up to the special person whether the offender is to be punished, either because they're in the mood to hand out punishment or because they don't like the offender in any case.

As others have said this is about power. Nothing more, nothing less.

pluckedcactus · 27/07/2021 22:05

I too can see this coming in my department. There's a stonewall survey on the intranet, but not somewhere obvious. It's like they only want some people to know about it.

Triphazards · 27/07/2021 22:57

@16HamstersCalledThemAllDave

I have a relative who is non-binary and decides every day if it's a 'female' or a 'male' day. How would that work with pronouns? Genuine question. Would the email signature have to be updated on a daily basis?
Is non-binary what they do nowadays instead of becoming a goth?
FemaleAndLearning · 27/07/2021 23:11

Kind regards,
Female and learning
She/her, non trans
Female
4 pregnancies
3 lots maternity leave
Divorced
No disabilities
Aethiest
Beliefs - too many to list, but mostly science based.
White British
Heterosexual

Phew!

How is any of that relevant to our email discussion?
But I would prefer to add my
Hogwarts House: Raven Claw as others have suggested.

Nonmaquillee · 28/07/2021 08:50

@16HamstersCalledThemAllDave

I have a relative who is non-binary and decides every day if it's a 'female' or a 'male' day. How would that work with pronouns? Genuine question. Would the email signature have to be updated on a daily basis?
How tedious and self absorbed of your relative.

Mememememeeeeeee

Namechangeforthis88 · 28/07/2021 08:51

@pluckedcactus, where is the Stonewall survey please?

Namechangeforthis88 · 28/07/2021 08:51

@pluckedcactus, DM me if that's better.

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