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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

8,000 civil servants to be asked to include pronouns in email sign-offs

158 replies

RedRobin20 · 27/07/2021 00:59

The link is below, as is a copy of the text from the full Telegraph article. I never thought that I would be a Telegraph subscriber but their journalism has been much more trusthworthy on this issue (and I wonder therefore whether it is more open on other issues too). This is going too far. In trying to be inclusive of this 1% of the population, nearly 60% are left feeling alienated and some in tears over it, leaving themselves open to sex discrimination.

My eyes have been opened this year. I reflexively was on board with the TRAs as I considered myself a progressive, open minded and liberal person. Then I realised how regressive, hateful and deceptive the TRA lobby is and how heavily it relies on stifling open discussion around safeguarding women, children and gay/lesbians. It wasn’t until reading the intelligent, compassionate and considered discussion on these boards that I had realised the harm being done. I’ve bought and distributed close to 10 of Helen Joyce’s books, and I’m starting conversations about this with family and friends it is becoming clear how many are GC when the discussion is brought to light (instead of just stifling it all as ‘no debate’, conflating the “trans rights” issues with previous civil rights movements and dismissing any GCs as bigots).

Sorry, too tired to type coherently about all this as there is just too much to say and it’s the end of a long day. I just wanted to thank all of you and hope that 2021 is the year that the tide turns on all of this.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/07/26/scottish-civil-servants-asked-include-pronouns-email-sign-offs/

Thousands of civil servants are to be encouraged to add pronouns to their email sign-offs under plans for a transgender inclusivity drive, despite a backlash from staff.

^The Scottish Government is backing proposals that would ask its 8,000 workers to take a “pronoun pledge” under which they would add terms reflecting their gender identity, such as she/her or he/him, to signatures at the bottom of every work email.

Some people who class themselves as non-binary prefer pronouns such as they/them, while others prefer “non standard” terms such as “zie” or “zir”, which civil servants would be free to use.

Supporters of the plan to “normalise the inclusion” of pronouns have said this would “foster an open culture that is supportive of the LGBTI+ community”.

However, the plan has provoked opposition from civil servants, after an internal survey set up to gauge opinion provoked a row which left some workers in tears.

Almost 60 per cent did not want to add pronouns to their emails, the results showed.

Meanwhile, campaigners raised fears that workers could feel pressurised to comply with the “stupid” and “authoritarian” policy, which has been backed by the Scottish Government but is yet to be rolled out.

Comments written by workers expressing concerns alongside the internal poll were dismissed as “disappointing” by Leslie Evans, Scotland's top civil servant, in a meeting with staff last month.

Documents released on Monday under Freedom of Information legislation show Ms Evans told staff in a Q&A session that “what we write around our name” could be “good and helpful” and said inclusivity policies could be overhauled.

However, Trina Budge, director of the For Women Scotland campaign group, described the pronoun push as “deeply stupid” and accused the Scottish Government of displaying “controlling, illiberal and authoritarian tendencies”.

“A recent poll showed the majority of civil servants were against this move and it is sad, but not surprising, to see Ms Evans disregard this,” she said.

“In forging ahead with this or any associated coerced signing of a pledge, the Scottish Government would, potentially, be discriminating against a protected belief and also inviting sex discrimination.

“It is further evidence that this Government only pretends to consult or openly discuss, and ditches any views which conflict with their predetermined policies.”

A bitter debate has erupted in Scotland about the issue of transgender rights, with Nicola Sturgeon in favour of changing the law to make it far easier for people to legally change their own gender.

Advocates of the changes believe current rules, which require medical reports and for someone to live in their preferred gender for two years, are too onerous and contribute to high levels of mental health problems in the trans community.

Some feminists, including Harry Potter author JK Rowling, strongly oppose the changes, believing they would erode women’s rights and potentially place them at risk in women-only spaces such as prisons and changing rooms.

The survey set up by supporters of the pronoun pledge found that only 17 per cent of more than 3,000 staff at the Government and its quangos who responded said they already used pronouns on email signatures. A quarter said they did not but might in future while 58 per cent said they did not and probably wouldn't.

Many trans and non-binary people introduce themselves with their preferred pronouns, so others know how they wish to be addressed. Some equality groups argue that even for people who are not trans or non-binary, adding pronouns to emails can be an important sign of inclusion towards those who are.

The comments made by some staff left other workers “in tears”, Joe Griffin, a director general in the Scottish Government, said.

He called for “empathy on both sides” of the debate and added: “Nobody in a workplace environment should have the fundamental aspect of their identity challenged.”

It was planned that a follow-up survey would run in September, to measure the impact of the initiative.

A Scottish government spokeswoman said: “It is an individual’s choice whether to include their pronouns in introductions and email signatures.

“The Scottish Government is making progress towards our ambition to be a world leading, diverse employer where people can be themselves at work, with a workforce that reflects the diversity of the people of Scotland.

“As an employer we are committed to a progressive approach to advancing LGBTI equality. We encourage any action that makes people feel included and respected in our organisation.”^

OP posts:
GromblesofGrimbledon · 27/07/2021 16:19

@WhereYouLeftIt

Headline - "Majority of Scottish Government civil servants say they'll never add pronouns to their email signatures"

www.holyrood.com/news/view,majority-of-scottish-government-civil-servants-say-theyll-never-add-pronouns-to-their-email-signatures

It's not popular. If the DG pushes it, there'll be a backlash I think.

Good. More people need to start growing a fucking backbone about this stuff.

A second poll is due to be conducted in September to see if there’s any change in the numbers.

However, internal correspondence, released to Holyrood under Freedom of Information legislation, showed that government staff working on the first poll were concerned about opposition to the proposal, and removed a comment option on the June poll to “minimise any negative responses.”

Sleekit bastards the lot of them.

Wearywithteens · 27/07/2021 16:33

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

RedDogsBeg · 27/07/2021 16:36

A second poll is due to be conducted in September to see if there’s any change in the numbers.

Keep asking until they get the right answer then?

and exactly how much time and money is being wasted on this?

McNameMcChange · 27/07/2021 16:44

@RedDogsBeg

A second poll is due to be conducted in September to see if there’s any change in the numbers.

Keep asking until they get the right answer then?

and exactly how much time and money is being wasted on this?

It's a poll on the intranet which would only take a few minutes to set up so I think the answer to your question is "not much" thankfully. It is worth doing again if only because the percentage of people who think it's a stupid idea will likely increase!
TheRebelle · 27/07/2021 16:50

My feeling is that if you have to tell people which pronouns you use then they’re probably not the correct pronouns, otherwise it would be obvious.

vesuvia · 27/07/2021 16:54

Quotation from the Telegraph' article: "Comments written by workers expressing concerns alongside the internal poll were dismissed as “disappointing” by Leslie Evans, Scotland's top civil servant, in a meeting with staff last month."

Leslie has the advantage of having a unisex name. I expect she will soon discover that she will probably be taken less seriously (for numerous reasons) if she includes she/her in her email signature.

Artichokeleaves · 27/07/2021 17:01

@ArabellaScott

Having been a civil servant many moons ago, I imagine/hope this will go the way of strictly enforced differently coloured rubber bands depending on the day of the week.

Yes, really.

Not to mention all that bollocks about 'does this colleague get on the bus' in performance reviews, and 'tasting the strawberry'.

Which was laughed out, along with the highly paid chocolate teapot at the top.

ArabellaScott · 27/07/2021 17:15

I missed a 'tasting the strawberry' initiative, Artichoke. Did it involve cake? [hopeful] Cake

ArabellaScott · 27/07/2021 17:16

@vesuvia

Quotation from the Telegraph' article: "Comments written by workers expressing concerns alongside the internal poll were dismissed as “disappointing” by Leslie Evans, Scotland's top civil servant, in a meeting with staff last month."

Leslie has the advantage of having a unisex name. I expect she will soon discover that she will probably be taken less seriously (for numerous reasons) if she includes she/her in her email signature.

'disappointing'

'You've let Stonewall down, you've let the civil service down, and most of all you've let zeirselves down'

PearlFriday · 27/07/2021 17:21

@PickAChew

Progressive towards what? The magical unicorn award?

I would be tempted to state "if you're talking to me, refer to me as Pickachew, you and your. If you're talking to someone else, use some bloody common sense"

I like this. You/your and my name is Anna so I'll let you figure it out.
FannyCann · 27/07/2021 17:22

Please tell me "tasting the strawberry" is t a euphemism. Shock

FannyCann · 27/07/2021 17:22

Isn't

nauticant · 27/07/2021 17:29

This is now being covered by the PM programme on Radio 4. If you were wondering whether there would be balance, then hahahahah.

BlackeyedSusan · 27/07/2021 17:34

Bloody hell. Where does one start?

nauticant · 27/07/2021 17:34

Evan Davis: declaring pronouns is useful and what decent people do.

Stonewall type: if people had had the issue explained properly to them they would have supported the "encouragement".

Theeyeballsinthesky · 27/07/2021 17:37

Somehow I doubt radio 4 listeners will be agreeing with them…

jhuizinga · 27/07/2021 17:41

I've just made the mistake of listening to this: a very partial piece as expected from Evan Davis. It's particularly annoying because most of PM so far has been about the failure of safeguarding in Lambeth leading to widespread and horrifying child abuse. Can the BBC not join the dots that expecting people not to notice someone's sex can lead to safeguarding failures?

nauticant · 27/07/2021 17:45

Evan Davis is always highly partial in this issue, and sometimes aggressively dismissive if presented with a wrong-thinker. He sums up what's wrong with the BBC.

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/07/2021 17:47

@TheRebelle

My feeling is that if you have to tell people which pronouns you use then they’re probably not the correct pronouns, otherwise it would be obvious.
Exactly! 😁
DdraigGoch · 27/07/2021 17:47

@RedDogsBeg

A second poll is due to be conducted in September to see if there’s any change in the numbers.

Keep asking until they get the right answer then?

and exactly how much time and money is being wasted on this?

This is the SNP-run Scottish Government, remember. "Keep asking until we get the right answer" may as well be their motto.
DdraigGoch · 27/07/2021 17:51

However, internal correspondence, released to Holyrood under Freedom of Information legislation, showed that government staff working on the first poll were concerned about opposition to the proposal, and removed a comment option on the June poll to “minimise any negative responses.”
Now there's a disappointment. I'd love to know what staff would have written anonymously, given the chance.

RedDogsBeg · 27/07/2021 17:51

@nauticant

Evan Davis: declaring pronouns is useful and what decent people do.

Stonewall type: if people had had the issue explained properly to them they would have supported the "encouragement".

Could Evan Davis be anymore partial? what decent people do wtaf BBC?

Why is it useful?

The good old explained properly for which read indoctrinated.

nauticant · 27/07/2021 17:53

It is useful because it is kind to trans people. If that's not enough then unfortunately you must be a bigot.

JustcameoutGC · 27/07/2021 17:55

I am sorry there just isn't enough space in my tiny lady brain for pronoun wankery, so I shan't be attending the gender identity sermon, er I mean pronoun workshop

FictionalCharacter · 27/07/2021 17:56

This is being done to force people to declare their "allyship" and reveal those who are not "allies". Very sinister.