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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

8,000 civil servants to be asked to include pronouns in email sign-offs

158 replies

RedRobin20 · 27/07/2021 00:59

The link is below, as is a copy of the text from the full Telegraph article. I never thought that I would be a Telegraph subscriber but their journalism has been much more trusthworthy on this issue (and I wonder therefore whether it is more open on other issues too). This is going too far. In trying to be inclusive of this 1% of the population, nearly 60% are left feeling alienated and some in tears over it, leaving themselves open to sex discrimination.

My eyes have been opened this year. I reflexively was on board with the TRAs as I considered myself a progressive, open minded and liberal person. Then I realised how regressive, hateful and deceptive the TRA lobby is and how heavily it relies on stifling open discussion around safeguarding women, children and gay/lesbians. It wasn’t until reading the intelligent, compassionate and considered discussion on these boards that I had realised the harm being done. I’ve bought and distributed close to 10 of Helen Joyce’s books, and I’m starting conversations about this with family and friends it is becoming clear how many are GC when the discussion is brought to light (instead of just stifling it all as ‘no debate’, conflating the “trans rights” issues with previous civil rights movements and dismissing any GCs as bigots).

Sorry, too tired to type coherently about all this as there is just too much to say and it’s the end of a long day. I just wanted to thank all of you and hope that 2021 is the year that the tide turns on all of this.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/07/26/scottish-civil-servants-asked-include-pronouns-email-sign-offs/

Thousands of civil servants are to be encouraged to add pronouns to their email sign-offs under plans for a transgender inclusivity drive, despite a backlash from staff.

^The Scottish Government is backing proposals that would ask its 8,000 workers to take a “pronoun pledge” under which they would add terms reflecting their gender identity, such as she/her or he/him, to signatures at the bottom of every work email.

Some people who class themselves as non-binary prefer pronouns such as they/them, while others prefer “non standard” terms such as “zie” or “zir”, which civil servants would be free to use.

Supporters of the plan to “normalise the inclusion” of pronouns have said this would “foster an open culture that is supportive of the LGBTI+ community”.

However, the plan has provoked opposition from civil servants, after an internal survey set up to gauge opinion provoked a row which left some workers in tears.

Almost 60 per cent did not want to add pronouns to their emails, the results showed.

Meanwhile, campaigners raised fears that workers could feel pressurised to comply with the “stupid” and “authoritarian” policy, which has been backed by the Scottish Government but is yet to be rolled out.

Comments written by workers expressing concerns alongside the internal poll were dismissed as “disappointing” by Leslie Evans, Scotland's top civil servant, in a meeting with staff last month.

Documents released on Monday under Freedom of Information legislation show Ms Evans told staff in a Q&A session that “what we write around our name” could be “good and helpful” and said inclusivity policies could be overhauled.

However, Trina Budge, director of the For Women Scotland campaign group, described the pronoun push as “deeply stupid” and accused the Scottish Government of displaying “controlling, illiberal and authoritarian tendencies”.

“A recent poll showed the majority of civil servants were against this move and it is sad, but not surprising, to see Ms Evans disregard this,” she said.

“In forging ahead with this or any associated coerced signing of a pledge, the Scottish Government would, potentially, be discriminating against a protected belief and also inviting sex discrimination.

“It is further evidence that this Government only pretends to consult or openly discuss, and ditches any views which conflict with their predetermined policies.”

A bitter debate has erupted in Scotland about the issue of transgender rights, with Nicola Sturgeon in favour of changing the law to make it far easier for people to legally change their own gender.

Advocates of the changes believe current rules, which require medical reports and for someone to live in their preferred gender for two years, are too onerous and contribute to high levels of mental health problems in the trans community.

Some feminists, including Harry Potter author JK Rowling, strongly oppose the changes, believing they would erode women’s rights and potentially place them at risk in women-only spaces such as prisons and changing rooms.

The survey set up by supporters of the pronoun pledge found that only 17 per cent of more than 3,000 staff at the Government and its quangos who responded said they already used pronouns on email signatures. A quarter said they did not but might in future while 58 per cent said they did not and probably wouldn't.

Many trans and non-binary people introduce themselves with their preferred pronouns, so others know how they wish to be addressed. Some equality groups argue that even for people who are not trans or non-binary, adding pronouns to emails can be an important sign of inclusion towards those who are.

The comments made by some staff left other workers “in tears”, Joe Griffin, a director general in the Scottish Government, said.

He called for “empathy on both sides” of the debate and added: “Nobody in a workplace environment should have the fundamental aspect of their identity challenged.”

It was planned that a follow-up survey would run in September, to measure the impact of the initiative.

A Scottish government spokeswoman said: “It is an individual’s choice whether to include their pronouns in introductions and email signatures.

“The Scottish Government is making progress towards our ambition to be a world leading, diverse employer where people can be themselves at work, with a workforce that reflects the diversity of the people of Scotland.

“As an employer we are committed to a progressive approach to advancing LGBTI equality. We encourage any action that makes people feel included and respected in our organisation.”^

OP posts:
pluckedcactus · 28/07/2021 11:48

@namechangeforthis88 the link is on the department intranet (in a tiny news in brief part) but just sends you to snapsurveys.com. Called "Stonewall Staff Feedback Questionnaire" and says it's for the department's participation in the workplace equality index 2022. I would guess other departments are doing something similar.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/07/2021 11:50

And what if you didn't respond to them on the same day? Would you be misgendering them with their own email signature?

The possibilities for offence are endless!

RedRobin20 · 28/07/2021 11:51

@Namechangeforthis88 I am so sorry to hear that any views regarding protected characteristics that might conflict with pro-TRA wishes have effectively been designed out of the system that is meant to assess for that very thing. I am so sorry that your voice has been stifled and I agree that it is so sinister.

I know several people working in Scottish government and their knee jerk reaction to Helen Joyce’s book was based purely on Twitter reactions and none of its content (“oh so you’re reading an anti-Semitic manifesto!” And “LOL yeah she wrote a book about how apparently all trans people want their nipples and genitals removed completely so that they look like dolls”). I was so baffled and thought we must be talking about different books. I don’t want to identify myself or them, but I will say that it is clear that those very high up are controlling a narrative with complete disregard for the harm that it is causing. I don’t see it changing in Scotland, but that’s only because there has never been an open discussion. All my family and friends in Scotland have been shocked and appalled when they begin to realise what’s happening.

I am so angry that we are not allowed to discuss our concerns without being labelled a hateful bigot. There has always been a place in society for ignoring and not caring about harm to the “wrong kind of woman” and at this point in time it would seem that vulnerable women and abused women who don’t feel safe around people with penises or male strength are it. It might seem like it’s only something “white middle class women” care about (another dismissive label) but it’s because these are the women who are “allowed” to have a voice and will not suffer as severely when they are inevitably cancelled by just trying to have a discussion about the muddy statistics around puberty blockers, the importance of women’s spaces and women’s sport, and the safeguarding issues that TRAs don’t want to be out in the open.

I love reading what @ArabellaScott writes on these issues. This board has been such a relief to find and since then I have started to find that our allies probably far outnumber TRAs in real life. It just isn’t reflected so much in social media or online, which also begins to get at the crux of some trans peoples experiences of human interaction and lack of nuance in understanding others.

OP posts:
Keepemguessing · 28/07/2021 12:37

I work at a large charity and, at a senior level, people know that our association with Stonewall is causing people to not want to donate. And they don't care.

Artichokeleaves · 28/07/2021 12:44

It is a well known problem with the big charities at the highest levels. There is a small, incestuous group of senior posts, at intervals they all swap chairs but it's the same people in the same group of jobs. And they are all preserving, maintaining and recruitingly only those who belong to these highly interesting and elitist political views, which are increasingly divorced from the reality of ordinary people. Employees not on board with it all are chased out. And it has much to do with the biggest charities spending a lot of time creating and extending their own jobs and briefs and justifying their posts rather than serving those the charity was created for.

Any contact with those groups at this level leaves one rather wide eyed, shocked and determined to donate to small local charities where those collecting are also those directly at the coalface of the work being done.

FannyCann · 28/07/2021 13:21

Indeed Artichoke One reason why I never donate as much as a penny to any of the big charities. The harder the sell, the more obvious spending involved in advertising etc, the even less likely I am to give a penny. I live in hope that one day they will wake up to the reality of falling incomes....

Artichokeleaves · 28/07/2021 13:42

Sadly Fanny from what I observe it tends to be the case that those who hold these interesting and rather elite views tend to be so convinced of their own higher knowledge and superiority that they are happy to abandon income and votes from anyone who does not agree with them. The Labour party have been destruction testing whether you can treat ordinary people in this way and still expect to survive for some years now,

Selkiesarereal · 28/07/2021 18:42

I keep waiting to see if my organisation is going to go down this route but nothing so far but we’re in Scotland so can see this bollocks coming.

16HamstersCalledThemAllDave · 28/07/2021 19:48

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And what if you didn't respond to them on the same day? Would you be misgendering them with their own email signature?

The possibilities for offence are endless!

I hadn't even thought of that. How could we as a society function if each individual chose their own identity every day? What if we were discriminated against on one day but not the next?
PumpkinSpiceWoman · 28/07/2021 20:15

I can see why JK would be against pronouns. Imagine if people had sussed she was a lady writer before she got famous! The horror!

SnoopyLights · 28/07/2021 22:10

PumpkinSpice

I'm sure you know as well as anybody else the reason why she was advised to use just her initials as a new author rather than her obviously female name.

But just in case - it was down to sex-based discrimination due to boys / men not wanting to read books by female authors.

Nothing to do with getting rich, just wanting a fair shot and not being judged on her name before they had even picked up her book.

This gives another example of how differently someone is treated just because they have an obviously male / female name signing off their emails, never mind sticking pronouns into the mix.

FemaleAndLearning · 28/07/2021 22:56

Snoopy, yes, and the same reason the lead character, Harry, was a male. Girls will read a book with a male or female lead but boys prefer male lead books.

DdraigGoch · 29/07/2021 00:47

@PumpkinSpiceWoman

I can see why JK would be against pronouns. Imagine if people had sussed she was a lady writer before she got famous! The horror!
Are you beginning to see how advertising their sex puts women at a disadvantage?
FannyCann · 29/07/2021 06:57

Jenni Murray is not a fan of pronouns or the BBC enforcing them.

JENNI MURRAY: State my preferred pronoun? You must be joking
mol.im/a/9836183

windysocks · 29/07/2021 07:07

Scotland is the new Canada

sailmeaway · 29/07/2021 07:42

I've always thought it was more useful for those who have pronouns that my differ from the norm to put those in their email - so 'they' if they're non-binary or whatever than asking a whole organisations staff to put their pronouns on.

ChewtonRoad · 29/07/2021 08:08

Some equality groups argue that even for people who are not trans or non-binary, adding pronouns to emails can be an important sign of inclusion towards those who are.

Without those "signs of inclusion" what would happen to those who are trans or nonbinary? Would they be unable to work because of the perceived lack of inclusion?

As an employer we are committed to a progressive approach to advancing LGBTI equality. We encourage any action that makes people feel included and respected in our organisation.
Oh. When I take those actions and feel put-upon and not respected, then what? Can I ask that those who are trans and nonbinary remove their pronouns in order to make me feel included? I suspect that beee kiiinnd only works in one direction.

userchange902 · 30/07/2021 07:11

I'm about to move to a department that I've noticed all have pronouns and "LGBTQ+ ally". I'm hoping I can just say I'm not comfortable giving my pronouns and leave it at that, I will keep the ally bit for the sake of LGB but makes me want to list all the other things I feel more strongly about.

Chersfrozenface · 30/07/2021 07:17

@userchange902

I'm about to move to a department that I've noticed all have pronouns and "LGBTQ+ ally". I'm hoping I can just say I'm not comfortable giving my pronouns and leave it at that, I will keep the ally bit for the sake of LGB but makes me want to list all the other things I feel more strongly about.
Indeed.

What would happen if civil servants noted who else they are allies to?

Say, disabled people or women? Or animals? Surely that should be acceptable, no, encouraged.

PearlFriday · 30/07/2021 07:28

@userchange902

I'm about to move to a department that I've noticed all have pronouns and "LGBTQ+ ally". I'm hoping I can just say I'm not comfortable giving my pronouns and leave it at that, I will keep the ally bit for the sake of LGB but makes me want to list all the other things I feel more strongly about.
Can saying "oh! No thank you" upset the allies. I have received a few emails with they them etc but never been ask3d to nail any colours to a mast myself. I dread the day.

My pronouns are As Per Before All This.

Deliriumoftheendless · 30/07/2021 07:51

I dislike token box ticking exercises full stop.

I worked in a school where we were required to do more for staff mental health.

So a questionnaire went around and you filled in how your work made you feel. And they got lots of results saying people were unhappy, under too much pressure, unsupported, work load too big etc.

So, as these results didn’t please the leadership team we all got a bollocking.

Nothing changed but we could say, yes we have started to implement strategies round MH issues.

I see pronouns in signatures the same way.

If it’s useful to you crack on, but it seems like an easy way to say organisations are “doing something” without any cost or effort.

Nonmaquillee · 30/07/2021 08:35

Reasons for not including pronouns aside, how much time and energy is WASTED by, for example, the Scottish Government on this issue?? Aren’t there other national concerns that desperately need tackling that are far more pressing for example child poverty, domestic abuse, mental health…..?

Overall, pronouns are totally trivial in the scheme of things. If this became an issue in my workplace, I would have no hesitation in speaking my mind.

userchange902 · 30/07/2021 08:39

So I'm going in as data protection lead, we have no legal basis for this data so I'm wondering if I can quash it by saying we can't compel people to give this data and as it could make some people uncomfortable we shouldn't make them feel pressured to. Come at it from privacy rather than appearing "political"?

Finknottlesnewt · 30/07/2021 08:50

Another Civil Servant here. I work in Criminal Investigation of Organised Crime. I have been in the CS for 25 years. I have seen this nonsense in a few emails . Unsurprisingly it's ALWAYS the usual suspects. The ones who really don't seem to have any actual work to do. You know the sort of thing... the directors of strategic governance .. the 'change champions' ...
Those of us with hardly a minute in the day could give less than no fucks about this. I would regard any 'requirement' to adopt this nonsense as a breach of my rights. Perhaps I don't WANT to tell anyone my 'gender preference' .. perhaps I like to be Sam (pronoun female ) on Mondays and Wednesdays only .. maybe I don't .. surely it's my right to change my mind every other day ?