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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie Parker's latest - Glasgow

323 replies

TheShadowyFeminist · 23/07/2021 11:00

I wilted in the heat so missed the pub afterwards. But PP's comments on the 'fawning' I'm finding interesting. Because even at a meeting of women who are fighting for their rights, and the right to say no to any male, irrespective of identity, being given access to female only services/space/provision/sport etc. it seems that female socialisation kicks in when a male wears a dress.

I've been involved in this fight for a number of years now, and I've witnessed how the inclusion of males, irrespective of claimed gender identity, often shifts the tone, the balance, the atmosphere for women & limits what they will say/do to further their cause. It also means that some women who really need that female solidarity can't access it.

I think the 'fawning' is something that we al need to reflect on & work out why this is how some of us behave over someone who (as far as I'm aware) has failed to acknowledge their part in writing guidance for schools that breach female children's rights under the UNCRC.

I think we all need to 'be more Posie' in life & activism.

OP posts:
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Datun · 14/09/2021 19:52

Gosh R0wantrees, that's a very, um, determined person.

Yeah yeah, the public thought there was some some huge gatekeeping going on and there wasn't. It was always bluff.

And then when this self-id thing came out I'm thinking, you don't want to shine a light on this, you really don't.

Bloody hell.

TinselAngel · 14/09/2021 19:54

Puts the earlier poster's claim that we share aims into perspective doesn't it?

Datun · 14/09/2021 20:00

@TinselAngel

Puts the earlier poster's claim that we share aims into perspective doesn't it?
Doesn't it just.
BitMuch · 14/09/2021 20:03

Because the target location is inward, I'm signalling to myself. The Unherd piece gives more detail on that, though there is scope for a fuller account. I'm working on that at the moment.

Do you believe it is appropriate for children to learn that their school teacher has a paraphillia that h "signals" to h*self while in their classroom? Have you or the school told the parents that you are writing and sharing multiple explanations about it online publicly in your full name where children you teach can read them? You have allocated a tag for 'autogynephilia' on your public website which is in your name. As well as online articles and public tweets, such as this posted a week ago mobile.twitter.com/DebbieHayton/status/1435175662021664768 which directs readers to an article with incredibly sexually explicit descriptions of exactly what autogynephiles do:

'Some reported fantasising during sex that they were women and their female partners were men penetrating them, or that they and their wives were lesbians.'
'Patients listened to stories about presenting as a woman—very dull ones, so as not to excite anyone who did not have an erotic interest in cross-dressing. (Here is a sample: “You put on your eye shadow, mascara, and lipstick.”) Most of the men in Blanchard’s second group who had denied an erotic interest in cross-dressing became aroused. The patients who denied erotic cross-dressing, or who claimed to be bisexual or asexual, scored more highly, suggesting that they were more likely to be saying what they thought doctors wanted to hear.'

' “It made me realise what an audacious thing it was to do—to rebuild your life around your paraphilia with consciousness and deliberation.” '

'Many of their fantasies are clearly sexual, even if unusual—for example, imagining being penetrated in a non-existent vagina while placing something in one’s anus. But almost anything coded female or feminine, she writes, can cause an “intense, perplexing, shame-inducing erotic arousal that seems to simultaneously animate and discredit [autogynephiles’] desires to have female bodies.” Her informants recount erotic fantasies of pushing a baby buggy, joining a knitting circle, being called “ma’am,” having bubble-gum-blowing contests with girls, wearing clip-on earrings, taking birth-control pills, having a Pap smear test, and so on and on.'

'For example, they report arousal at the simple act of putting on everyday women’s clothes. Natal women do not find getting dressed for work an orgasmic experience.'

'But if gender identity is not sexual in origin, then there is no reason those fantasies should be erotic. They also tend to continue post-transition, strengthening the conclusion that they constitute a paraphilia rather than a coping mechanism.'

'She tells him about the “robot man” that “Chuck” (her name pre-transition) constructed to enact his fantasy of vaginal penetration. It had a “penis” made of a dildo, and an arm that could be manipulated to stroke his back. A mirror on the ceiling enabled Chuck to view this simulacrum of heterosexual sex, dressed as a woman with the robot man penetrating his anus.'
'her teenage self, Donald, experienced “a rush of sexual pleasure” when dressing in his mother’s underwear, and used to break into neighbours’ houses in search of girls’ clothes. She also specifies his preference for autogynephilic pornography'

'If a guy decides he’s coming to work as a woman from now on, it’s one thing for him to say: “I’m coming to terms with the fact that I’ve always been a woman inside,” and quite another to say: “I’ve moved on from just masturbating in women’s clothes to wearing them all the time.”'

Then comments such as mobile.twitter.com/ElisaShupe/status/1435277179458232322.

When I was at secondary school, teachers had very strict rules around social media. Kids relished finding out and sharing any tiny details about teachers, which were things like first names or hobbies. The above twitter account was the third Google result just from googling "Dr Hayton" so knowledge of a first name isn't even needed.

R0wantrees · 14/09/2021 20:09

Hi Debbie,

You still seem to keep missing my question in favour of talking about sex and breasts.

In lieu of any response from you I assume that you have not retracted your guidance to the NASUWT.

TUC
'Debbie's story: from gender reassignment to trade union activist'
18 Nov 2016

FloralBunting · 14/09/2021 20:24

I'd say that breasts and height are the two key signals of sex in humans

🤣🤣🤣🤣This is a joke, right? I mean, I don't know about anyone else, but I can't take any male person seriously who thinks that women are like Joey on the beach with sandcastle boobs.

Absolutely fucking hilarious.😂🤣😂

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 14/09/2021 20:59

I've never really understood "passing" as a concept - because I can spot a male person regardless of whatever surgery or hormones or clothes he is using to signal to himself, AFAICS no TW "passes".

I can even tell the sex of a person from what they write on this site.

Am I special?

LangClegsInSpace · 14/09/2021 21:29

It only affects women if we think that male transsexuals are women.

No.

I don't care how DH comes to terms with his AGP in the privacy of his own head but it absolutely affects women and girls if this is played out in public or within a relationship.

Saying 'I know I'm a man, really' is not magic words that negate all the harm. It's just saying the quiet thing out loud.

I share other posters' astonishment that men can be this upfront about their fetish and still gain approval in some quarters.

YoureKiddinRight · 15/09/2021 15:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

R0wantrees · 15/09/2021 18:13

Youtube interview with Graham Linehan:

'The Mess We're In Ep. #25: Karen Davis!'
11 Dec 2020
"We're joined by the wonderful Karen Davis, the woman behind 'You're Kidding, Right'?"

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 16/09/2021 12:18

As for ‘widening the bandwidth of being a man’, I personally would find that argument more attractive if the man in question - whoever he was, not just Dr Hayton - was using accurate sex-based pronouns / ID documents and not describing himself as having female sex characteristics. Or signals.

Datun · 16/09/2021 12:37

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

As for ‘widening the bandwidth of being a man’, I personally would find that argument more attractive if the man in question - whoever he was, not just Dr Hayton - was using accurate sex-based pronouns / ID documents and not describing himself as having female sex characteristics. Or signals.
Indeed. It's not even as subtle as sleight of hand.

It works in the same way as people who change their gender, then expect to be ceded rights based on sex.

You can't say you're male, and then claim you are signaling your sex with breasts!

I must admit, a whole 24 hours later, and I still can't get over the fact that the size of women's breasts determines their social status. Amongst other women!

Obviously I took a long look of the pics of Nadine Dorries and Liz Truss this morning, just to work out if either of them shopped at Bravissimo.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 16/09/2021 12:50

I must admit, a whole 24 hours later, and I still can't get over the fact that the size of women's breasts determines their social status. Amongst other women!

I couldn’t actually tell you what size breasts most of my women friends have because it’s never occurred to me to check! (And that’s despite being a lesbian). Should we be lining up in order to determine the hierarchy? Surely a secondary school teacher can’t believe that teenage girls do this?

PickAChew · 16/09/2021 13:39

Wow. Do we lose status points for sagginess, I wonder?

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 16/09/2021 14:31

Or a temporary bonus for wonderbras?

Datun · 16/09/2021 14:48

I've been known to buy minimisers. Devastated to learn I've been colluding in my own social downfall.

BitMuch · 16/09/2021 15:44

Grayson Perry says he prefers to be known to be a man while he is crossdressing in public. It adds to his sexual 'fantasy of humiliation', increases the 'frisson', as he enjoys being noticed and 'othered' but only in a way where he keeps the real power and control.

This Transwidow reports a similar story of her experience mobile.twitter.com/eyre_ann/status/1438442399504736257. Another Transwidow says:
'What mattered most to my husband – apart from his penis of which he was extremely proud – was the idea – the delusion – that he ‘passed’ as a woman. He did not believe that he was a woman nor did he have the slightest thought of ‘losing’ his penis. . . He was, however, obsessed by breasts and fantasised about having them'
'He was an exhibitionist.' 'He found it ‘exciting’ to shock other people and to not respect their boundaries. He liked to go to places dressed as a woman where he knew he had no right to be.'
www.transwidows.com/index.php/tag/autogynaephilia/

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 16/09/2021 15:55

Boggling at breast size conferring status among other women

If anything I’d suggest smaller breasts can help you avoid looking a bit middle aged as you get, well, middle aged. So maybe smaller breasts confer status with other women. They’re certainly easier to dress stylishly with.

So male to think bigger = better

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 16/09/2021 19:38

Smaller breasts are definitely easier to deal with when running, doing yoga etc. Especially if you're doing something like the plough where your breasts (well, mine anyway) shove into your neck & try to choke you.

somethinginoffensive · 16/09/2021 20:18

Boggling at breast size conferring status among other women

Well yes, but this is how far too many men think, they don't see women as people.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 16/09/2021 20:23

Does penis size confer status among blokes?

TinselAngel · 16/09/2021 22:07

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

Does penis size confer status among blokes?
Is there some kind of yearly ceremony where they compare willies and a league table is drawn up accordingly?
KimikosNightmare · 16/09/2021 22:18

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I've never really understood "passing" as a concept - because I can spot a male person regardless of whatever surgery or hormones or clothes he is using to signal to himself, AFAICS no TW "passes".

I can even tell the sex of a person from what they write on this site.

Am I special?

I can even tell the sex of a person from what they write on this site

No, you can't. You and some other posters think you can.

MiladyBerserko · 16/09/2021 22:29

We can with you anyway

RedDogsBeg · 16/09/2021 22:32

If anything I’d suggest smaller breasts can help you avoid looking a bit middle aged as you get, well, middle aged. So maybe smaller breasts confer status with other women. They’re certainly easier to dress stylishly with.

Imperative to avoid the Nurse Gladys Emmanuel shelf.