Posie Parker's latest - Glasgow

[TheShadowyFeminist]

I wilted in the heat so missed the pub afterwards. But PP's comments on the 'fawning' I'm finding interesting. Because even at a meeting of women who are fighting for their rights, and the right to say no to any male, irrespective of identity, being given access to female only services/space/provision/sport etc. it seems that female socialisation kicks in when a male wears a dress.

I've been involved in this fight for a number of years now, and I've witnessed how the inclusion of males, irrespective of claimed gender identity, often shifts the tone, the balance, the atmosphere for women & limits what they will say/do to further their cause. It also means that some women who really need that female solidarity can't access it.

I think the 'fawning' is something that we al need to reflect on & work out why this is how some of us behave over someone who (as far as I'm aware) has failed to acknowledge their part in writing guidance for schools that breach female children's rights under the UNCRC.

I think we all need to 'be more Posie' in life & activism.

I don't want to brag, but mine touch my knees.

Well I walk on stilts to give myself even more status.

@somethinginoffensive

Hi Debbie,

You must have missed my question. My interest in the transgender issue is how it affects women and girls.

I am fine with you doing whatever surgery you wish and dressing how you wish provided it's decent and appropriate for the occasion.

None of that changes your sex or makes you a woman though. I think you now also understand that you are, and always will be, a man.

So, given this, can you answer this question:

Hi Debbie, just want to check, I understand you helped write the NASUWT guidelines which said that male teachers could use women's toilets etc. Do you still support those guidelines?

Hi Debbie,

You still seem to keep missing my question in favour of talking about sex and breasts.

In lieu of any response from you I assume that you have not retracted your guidance to the NASUWT.

Its very odd to assume heterosexual women would have the same response to breasts as heterosexual men do.

Especially if you're going to the trouble of writing articles about it!

Anyone with eyes will see there is absolutely zero correlation between women's breasts and their social status.

And having big breasts is not an indication of sexual availability. I mean it's very basic, I know, but that's what appears to be the suggestion.

My boobs are not enormous. Does this mean I'm serf class in the Boobtastic Pecking Order?

(I am rather hoping Debbie keeps this theory of and attitude towards women's breasts out of the classroom when Debbie is teaching. It doesn't seem like an efficacious one for pubertal girls.)

@WhatKatyDidNot

Boob Jobs R Us! Deary me.

No, I'm sorry, Debbie. But you wrote an article in which you attempted to use evo psych theory to explain how medical and surgical interventions were in some way palliative to transsexuals because they enabled sex signalling in a way congruent with the wished-for sex. Boob jobs do not enable female sex signalling even on evo psych grounds. This just plain wrong about the theory you yourself are claiming. Physical attributes that differ between sexes are not sex signalling in the way you are implying. They are simply physical attributes that have evolved differently due to reproductive role. Breasts are for breastfeeding children. They are not monkey bums, which swell at oestrus.

From a male perspective I'd say that female breasts are a sexual signal. We tend to notice them. Maybe that is why they have evolved differently in humans to many other mammals: in humans they are larger than they need to be to feed the young and they are permanent. I don't think those things have just happenned without a reason.

Again, sexual dimorphism is not a signal for sexual availability.

From a male perspective I'd say that female breasts are a sexual signal. We tend to notice them. Maybe that is why they have evolved differently in humans to many other mammals: in humans they are larger than they need to be to feed the young and they are permanent. I don't think those things have just happenned without a reason.

Make up your mind, Debbie. First they're a way women signal to men that they are women and available sexual partners and that is why transsexuals find getting boob jobs palliative for their body dissatisfaction, then you say they are a way women signal status among themselves and bigger is better, now you're saying blokes fancy them and it's not women signalling anything by themselves, because, perish the thought, they could never be agents of anything.

Which is it?

Actually, I think you would probably be better off not answering. It's a big ol' hole you're digging here.

Also - and I know I'm being pedantic - 'sex' and 'sexual' are not interchangeable.

@WhatKatyDidNot

Boob Jobs R Us! Deary me.

No, I'm sorry, Debbie. But you wrote an article in which you attempted to use evo psych theory to explain how medical and surgical interventions were in some way palliative to transsexuals because they enabled sex signalling in a way congruent with the wished-for sex. Boob jobs do not enable female sex signalling even on evo psych grounds. This just plain wrong about the theory you yourself are claiming. Physical attributes that differ between sexes are not sex signalling in the way you are implying. They are simply physical attributes that have evolved differently due to reproductive role. Breasts are for breastfeeding children. They are not monkey bums, which swell at oestrus.

Last year I posted in response to Dr Hayton's suggestion that in the event he received a custodial sentence he should be held in female prison estate on the basis of his body modifications:

"I am concerned that a secondary school science teacher would claim (erroneously) that their male body altered by cosmetic surgery and/or medication had 'female sex characteristics'. Female sexual characteristics are the vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, clitoris, cervix, and the ability to bear children, breasts, ability to nurse children, a menstrual cycle, and increased body fat composition. These are sex specific for the purpose of reproduction.
Human development and reproduction being important parts of the science as well as PSHE curriculum."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript?msgid=102208220#102208220

I am further disconcerted by the recent inaccurate proclamations about "sexual signalling" and ascribing of hierarchical status to girls and women's breasts.

What on earth is this conversation about I’m tall and flat chested, am I signalling that I’ve got sperm or eggs available? I have neither…

I’d also like to know the answer about the guidance, and whether you still stand by it, Debbie. refocusing on that would certainly be more productive than talking about breasts. Failing that, can you start again from the beginning and explain what you’re actually talking about as it seems to be an answer to a question I missed, posed in an article I haven’t read. Shouldn’t be too hard to quickly summarise, then we’re all caught up.

How do you know a man has arrived on FWR?
The conversation is now all about boobs.
Women don’t do that. Men do. That’s signalling your sex, and your sexual fetish. Soon enough women will start taking the piss. That us signalling who we are, as members of our sex class signalling our non-availability to porn-addled men.

I can't help laughing. Men objectify women's breasts, so therefore women's breasts must be a sign of status amongst other women.

I mean women do talk about the objectification of their breasts by men, but they're not jostling for position!

Unless you count extreme eye rolling as a competitive sport.

From a male perspective I'd say that female breasts are a sexual signal. We tend to notice them.

You are speaking from your perspective alone. The vast majority of middle aged fathers (especially those working with teenagers) do not persist with such atitudes towards women and girls' bodies.

A reminder that this is a feminist board on a parenting website.

If middle aged men with agp are “signalling sex” when they have silicone implants attached to their chest, according to some pseudo evo psych belief, are they also trans age? Once a woman has had children, she will, even if you go with evo psych beliefs, tend to the survival of her children.

I have yet to hear of agp men “signalling sex” by sacrificing career progress to bring up their children. In fact, many of them conveniently wait till the children don’t require so many sacrifices from the parents to start “signalling female sex”.

Breast size is an indicator of social status amongst women?

Now I've heard everything.

Having had major reconstructive surgery for gigantomastia, I honestly would have noticed this if it was a thing. But no, I was not queen of the world when I had sufficient boobage for a whole week's edition of page three, and was not relegated to a different league once I had average boobs.

Women just don't think like this. At all.

And this is what Karen was talking about. Women don't 'signal' by having breasts. Crikey, it's exhausting enough. But you would think that someone who wants to be a woman, and has written about it at length, would get all this.

I mean, most men I know get this. It's not a sophisticated notion.

Breasts are for breastfeeding children. They are not monkey bums

A reminder that this is a feminist board on a parenting website.

And yet a man uses this platform not to discuss anything to do with women but instead his sexual fetish.

He pointedly ignores women who question how his actions have affected women and girls.

All the piss taking aside, it is disturbing rape apologia that women going around having female bodies are signalling their sex to men. This suggestions is very, very close to the also evo-psych inspired belief that women signal sexual availability to men, by being female in the vicinity of men.

Some girls develop breasts from 9 years old. Are we to think that someone, who is trusted to work as a teacher, thinks that by having breasts all girls ate “signalling sex” at him?

I have a PhD in Psychology and I am not taken in by vague references to a perspective within psychology that has an awful lot of work to do to be taken seriously. It can be done, but only by very carefully backing up every argument with evidence. Vague claims based only in someone’s personal sexual feelings will not do it.

-not even if the fetishist in question has larger implants than me.

in humans they are larger than they need to be to feed the young

Flat-chested women have no problem feeding children. So where is the evolutionary benefit to that then?

@Datun

in humans they are larger than they need to be to feed the young

Flat-chested women have no problem feeding children. So where is the evolutionary benefit to that then?

Less attention from creepy men?

The latest posts are proving one thing without a doubt and that is all the protestations of feeling like a woman, always knew I was a woman, are untrue, not a clue how women think or feel it is how they think women think and feel and they are so far off the mark it's jaw dropping.

@RedDogsBeg

The latest posts are proving one thing without a doubt and that is all the protestations of feeling like a woman, always knew I was a woman, are untrue, not a clue how women think or feel it is how they think women think and feel and they are so far off the mark it's jaw dropping.

Indeed.

What appears to be happening to a lot of men with AGP is that they are trying, very hard, to fit their male experience into the reality of being a woman. I guess to authenticate it. When it's absolutely nothing like the reality of being a woman. But is exactly like the reality of being a man.

Obvs.

How much of our time do we spend trying to avoid male attention? Now I’m middle aged that is easier, but I am still acutely aware of difference in size if I’m walking home on my own at night.

I expect women and girls spend a larger proportion of our time being worried about men noticing us, that we do somehow wishing to flash our breasts at men.

Survival of the species by reproducing is not the only instinct. Basic survival is more important. And for mothers, how many times has it flashed through your mind, that should you be noticed by the wrong dort of man, what happens to your children?

Is that what AGPs mean when either claiming to be female or signalling sex by having breast implants? No, of course it isn’t.

Nothing screams male like sexual fetishistic obsession. Going on and on about that is just literal and figurative fapping all over women’s conversations.

@Datun

And this is what Karen was talking about. Women don't 'signal' by having breasts. Crikey, it's exhausting enough. But you would think that someone who wants to be a woman, and has written about it at length, would get all this.

I mean, most men I know get this. It's not a sophisticated notion.

Dr Hayton has repeatedly described an "insatiable" desire to change his body.

Ibid Unherd article:
"At the time — nine years ago — the urge to change not only my social presentation but also my body was irresistible."

Youtube interview with Maya
'A conversation with Debbie Hayton. AGP, transition , the trans movement and God'
4 Sept 2021
(transcript extracts)
"I'd learned that other people were transitioning. I started talking to
people who were transitioning and I was desperate to do it myself. I didn't really understand why at the time, didn't understand what was going on inside me, but the the urge and the need to do it was insatiable. In the end within about a year or so of that I transitioned" (continues)

"People say, "why are you campaigning on this?"
Yeah I am concerned about kids. I am concerned about, you know, my female friends and their rights.

But you know I came into this in 2016 purely out of self-interest, you know, and that was where I came from.

I was aware, like you said, the gatekeeping has always been well, there's a bit of gatekeeping. But I turned up at the gender clinic
and told them what I wanted, you know? The first time I went straight from work. I turned up my shirt and tie and said I want to transition and I want you to help me. (continues)

Yeah yeah, the public thought there was some some huge gatekeeping going on and there wasn't. It was always bluff.

And then when this self-id thing came out I'm thinking, you don't want to shine a light on this, you really don't.
Because the the brighter the light you shine on it, then everybody will realize that there is no gatekeeping. So they're gonna have to start applying some. And secondly, anybody who wants to subvert safeguarding procedures to avoid boundaries is gonna be attracted to this, like a magnet.

Yeah yeah and that's exactly what's happened yeah, so I, you know, I wrote at the time, just keep this quiet we don't want to talk about this" (continues)