Janice Turner interviews Jess Philips in the Times

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Interesting read:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d8851824-e3c1-11eb-afdb-c7b01afbcfc5?shareToken=aab7b7c1ae6d3cef2a3097ebc6dfec5b

Excerpts:

She says her greatest achievement is “making women as important as bins”. Councils only had only two statutory duties: adult and children’s social services, and refuse collection. The Domestic Abuse Act adds a third: providing women’s refuges.

What surprised her when sitting on the women and equalities committee, which discussed Gender Recognition Act reforms, was the requirement of two years living “in role” as the opposite sex before changing a birth certificate. “How do you live in role as a man? Have I got to use a spanner? No one could answer that. I’ve got short hair. I’m wearing trousers. Like, it’s not an act, is it? You can’t act like a woman, because we’re all different.”

She is aghast that the modern left seeks to legitimise, even idealise, prostitution, which through her long experience in the refuge movement she sees as sexual abuse. She uses the term “prostituted women” rather than the woke euphemism “sex workers”. Moreover, she’s long been concerned about long-standing women’s refuges losing funds in favour of generic services that purport to include everyone. “If you had £1 million for domestic violence services, you’d give £800,000 to a women’s refuge based on need and numbers. Having specialist services for LGBT or male victims of domestic abuse is totally brilliant and legitimate. They’re not the same. They need different services.”

@highame

I do not want to get into any sort of spat but I meant exclude a written piece. That's me finished on this one

So to clarify I, a feminist and a trans widow, am perpetuating bigotry against AGP males by suggesting they are excluded from feminist discourse and that their views not be cited as authoritative in any debate regarding women?

@highame

Accepteed Ova but this.... What has happened to the usual high standard of FWR critical thinking on this thread?......... I emphatically do not

highname Did you miss this?

Dr Hayton has yet to renounce or undo their own policy they co wrote that encourages male teaching staff who cross dress part time to use the facilities of women and girls if they feel like it.

I'm with Tinsel on this one.

Me too.

And me.

If we give a platform to men like Dr Hayton, then how are their wives and daughters - whom feminism should be prioritising - meant to speak? I had this argument IRL the other day.

I do think the Labour Party has a big problem with women. As I recall, at the last leadership contest, Keir was the only male, and far from the most impressive candidate. And yet ..
Meanwhile, the Conservative party has had 2 female leaders (and PMs), the first of them over 40 years ago. And TBH I think they will also have the first Black/Asian leader. Why isn’t Labour getting this?
Meanwhile it seems to me that Jess is just sitting on the fence. When she did the AMA with Mumsnet, she clearly didn’t expect the barrage of questions about women’s rights - I got the impression she was expecting a much easier ride. Which TBH is a mistake people often make with Mumsnet. She pulled out of the leadership race the next day, as I recall. Since then she’s clearly learned to temper her statements so as to play both sides. But she’s still on the fence and she lacks courage IMO.
There are plenty of strong fearless women out there who are risking their livelihoods in the pursuit of protecting women’s rights. But she’s not one of them.

Women are going to have to be very prepared for a 'don't frighten the horses' stealth approach from Labour. If they want to be electable they know they have to make hopeful noises to women and all other voters turned off by their identity politics obsession. They know in this time of a bloody awful government but no possible alternative that women especially are grateful for any possible crumb. And they will, as Jess is doing, make some potentially balancedish noises in the hope of getting a tick in a box. Starmer did exactly the same; said nothing, made sure women had a little hope that he might gaf about women's rights, and waited until he had the power before demonstrating that he couldn't gaf about women and sex based needs.

Anyone who lived through the Blair years knows very well, the Labour party are absolutely that cynical. Until I see someone willing to put themselves in the firing line with commitment such as Baroness Nicholson or Joanna Cherry, no. Not falling for it.

Unfortunately I’m a gobby individual and I’m always right, so I coming back at ya. First my apology, I didn’t think, but I see using the term GC in regards to Debbie Hayton, was unacceptable but that’s as far as I go for now. I re-read the thread just in case

1. I was a feminist (yes old bloody school) before most of you were born, even then I recognised that men were on our side just to take advantage of the ‘free love’ and some of them were just down right obnoxious. It is also the reason I have been anti trade unions because the sexism still exists in all its glory. I am still a feminist and I am and always have been proud of that fact.
2. I posted Debbie Hayton’s piece without having read it because people have posted her stuff in the past, and I never saw any sort of condemnation, so I couldn’t understand why my action was being singled out? In the past I have read some links on FWR written by men who experience AGP, again, no condemnation??? In fact Grayson Perry and others have been lauded for upfront discussions on this very subject.
3. Regardless of what Debbie Hayton may have done or been responsible for, they are part of this debate whether we like it or not and we, as feminist should be open to all comers as is evidenced by the continued debate with TRA’s on these threads. We are not TRA’s, we do not believe in ‘no debate’.
4. I am a big sympathiser with transwidows and contributed to the discussion by someone who thought they shouldn’t use the term ‘widow’ and given that I am a widow, I had skin in the game and supported the term for transwidows because I understood their trauma. However, if you want @TinselAngel, to trade pain, I’m up for those rounds. Never assume I am now interested in what you all have to say, I am an upfront person, and I will take the punches without any offence.

I don't think DH equates to Grayson Perry at all. Perry is very much an artist who expresses his gender fluidity as part of his art but there is no doubt he is a man. His career is his art.

If it hadn't been for some of Debbie Hayton's writing I might never have found my way to FWR. I doubt I'm alone in that.

If Jess Phillips were to have a conversation with Hayton and as a result, shift her position do I think that would be helpful to women in the Labour Party party? Yes I do.

On the other hand, if it hadn't been for this board, I'd have never known about Hayton's role in that policy for teaching staff, or noticed that Hayton never seems to answer questions about it. Nor would I have read that interview with Debbie and Stephanie.

In short, I'm conflicted. I'm also indifferent to opinions about my critical thinking skills. I think it's been helpful to see exposure on this board on the full range of Haytons writings and behaviours, and I'm very uncomfortable at the phrase if we give a platform to.... It is not something I expected to see on here.

I'm very uncomfortable at the phrase if we give a platform to.... It is not something I expected to see on here.

I’m nearly at the end of my coffee break so can’t reply in detail but I’ll pick up on that. Dr Hayton obviously has plenty of platforms & I'm not at all saying that he should be silenced or that people shouldn’t listen to him. What I am saying is that feminism should be about prioritising women’s voices, not those of their husbands / exes. In the interview the Haytons did together on the Straight Spouse Network podcast they recounted how Dr Hayton told Stephanie Hayton that he would leave if she asked him to. When she did ask him to, he (in his own words) ‘pushed the boundaries’ and refused.

When all the feminists are praising your trans spouse, how do you speak out if you’re not happy with him?

I think Debbie is a conflicted person in a conflicted position and the conflictions show up in the writing.

I am not sure that DH's views would help women in the Labour Party, beyond opening a door (why do we need men to do this for us?) because the conflicted position and conflicted views mean there are blindspots. Also Labour in their current state will tick this off their list as having consulted with women and would not look any further.

However, if you want @TinselAngel, to trade pain, I’m up for those rounds.

Drawing on my own experience (without going into any particular detail that I recall) in order to argue for excluding male AGP perpetrators* from feminism is "trading pain"? I'm certainly not looking for any woman's sympathy. I want righteous anger not pity.

I simply ask as I always do that women consider a simple question- who do you think has most to contribute- trans widows or our exes, because you can't have both. I regularly thank the universe that I found this place before my ex did or else I, and therefore probably the rest of the trans widows wouldn't be here.

There have been numerous threads on here discussing this so I am not singling you out. I am perhaps abrupt on this now because I have been posting about it for so long that I have little patience left.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript

I also thank any woman who has supported trans widows in the past but that does not make anyone immune from criticism if they (generally unknowingly) then act to our detriment.

*See Empresses post for justification of the use of "perpetrator".

I think Debbie is a conflicted person in a conflicted position and the conflictions show up in the writing.
I totally agree but that's kind of my point. I've found it very helpful to see some of the contradictions exposed on here and without a platform that exposure can't happen.

The Labour Party question is hypothetical by the way - I'm not aware of any conversation between Hayton and Phillips. But frankly I would no longer care if the person opening the door were male or female. I'm pragmatic.

I know that. And the reason I know it is that Hayton has a platform.

I simply ask as I always do that women consider a simple question- who do you think has most to contribute- trans widows or our exes, because you can't have both. I regularly thank the universe that I found this place before my ex did or else I, and therefore probably the rest of the trans widows wouldn't be here.

Of course it would be you, there is no question and thanks for replying but these are links, so far as I'm aware, no one displaying APG has posted in that capacity.

no one displaying APG has posted in that capacity.

Sorry I don't know what you mean?

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

What got me deleted?

Repeating haytons admission he has APG, he wants to destigmatise it, or that he makes school children refer to him as she?

Or was it that I called a man he?

Let me know so I can repost with the delete able part removed.

I saw and responded to Zutt's post and, from what I can remember, it said nothing that hasn't been made public by Hayton.

Hayton is a confessed AGP. They are quite upfront and open about it.

This is the PubMed.gov definition.

Autogynephilia is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female. It is the paraphilia that is theorized to underlie transvestism and some forms of male-to-female (MtF) transsexualism.

AGP directly negatively affects women.

Hayton co wrote the trade union guidelines that meant men identifying as women could use female facilities, and also the policy resulting in school children calling them Miss.

Also, speaking at a WPUK meeting, Hayton made a joke about having used the female facilities (I can't remember the exact details). At an actual meeting being held to advocate sex segregated spaces!

In the distant past, I considered whether it might be good strategy to hear from transwomen who seem to support women. Including when it looks like a change of heart.

Being able to say look, even this transwoman agrees with us!

But I quickly came to the conclusion that I was wrong. And many women, before me, found this out.

Apart from anything else, I asked myself whether I needed a male, at all, to analyse my (gender critical) feminism for me. Especially one who has been part of the root cause of the issue in the first place.

Hayton has been asked, many times, on this forum alone, to say whether they now disagree with the guidelines they wrote and has refused to answer.

I don't know about anyone else, but to me it obviously means they still agree, but don't want to have to say so.

Which is shit.

Hayton has been asked, many times, on this forum alone, to say whether they now disagree with the guidelines they wrote

I was eventually more gratified than I should have been that Prof Wintermute had undergone a semi-damascene conversion on the omission of women's perspective from the Yogakarta Principles.

However - I could stand to learn a lot more about what he's actively doing to lobby his fellow signatories to undo this harm. (I know he's a trustee of LGB Alliance. I feel the damage from Yogakarta needs to be unpicked.)

Being able to say look, even this transwoman agrees with us! I hope neither I, nor anyone else said that. I just think the more people in this debate the more I become sure we are right. I like some of the stuff Hayton writes but I have also learned from this thread alone one or two things I didn't know and that has added to my knowledge.

Sorry Tinsel what I meant was, as far as I know everything about APG has been a link. I personally am unaware of anyone with APG posting directly on here (I bloody well hope not).

It's too hot

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Hayton has been asked, many times, on this forum alone, to say whether they now disagree with the guidelines they wrote

I was eventually more gratified than I should have been that Prof Wintermute had undergone a semi-damascene conversion on the omission of women's perspective from the Yogakarta Principles.

However - I could stand to learn a lot more about what he's actively doing to lobby his fellow signatories to undo this harm. (I know he's a trustee of LGB Alliance. I feel the damage from Yogakarta needs to be unpicked.)

Yes, I totally get that.

We're so far down the rabbit hole that the smallest concession feels like a massive favour. When it bloody well isn't.

@highame

Being able to say look, even this transwoman agrees with us! I hope neither I, nor anyone else said that. I just think the more people in this debate the more I become sure we are right. I like some of the stuff Hayton writes but I have also learned from this thread alone one or two things I didn't know and that has added to my knowledge.

Sorry Tinsel what I meant was, as far as I know everything about APG has been a link. I personally am unaware of anyone with APG posting directly on here (I bloody well hope not).

It's too hot

February 2020 Quillette article by Dr Hayton:

'I May Have Gender Dysphoria. But I Still Prefer to Base My Life on Biology, Not Fantasy'
"Autogynephilia drove my own transsexualism."
''I speak from experience when I say that it’s difficult for autogynephiles to admit the simple truth that they are simply heterosexual males who use the conceit of female self-identification as a means to rationalize their sexual attraction to a female version of themselves.''.
quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

@highame

Being able to say look, even this transwoman agrees with us! I hope neither I, nor anyone else said that. I just think the more people in this debate the more I become sure we are right. I like some of the stuff Hayton writes but I have also learned from this thread alone one or two things I didn't know and that has added to my knowledge.

Sorry Tinsel what I meant was, as far as I know everything about APG has been a link. I personally am unaware of anyone with APG posting directly on here (I bloody well hope not).

It's too hot

I'm not suggesting you said it. I am saying that there are certainly people who think it is strategic to have transwomen support gender critical feminism.

Whereas I disagree. Unless they are no longer trans.

The cornerstone of transgenderism relies on women being demoted from a biological reality, to an identity for men. It's sexism.

There is no way you can have a foot in both camps. They are diametrically opposed.