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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner interviews Jess Philips in the Times

132 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/07/2021 09:44

Interesting read:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d8851824-e3c1-11eb-afdb-c7b01afbcfc5?shareToken=aab7b7c1ae6d3cef2a3097ebc6dfec5b

Excerpts:

She says her greatest achievement is “making women as important as bins”. Councils only had only two statutory duties: adult and children’s social services, and refuse collection. The Domestic Abuse Act adds a third: providing women’s refuges.

What surprised her when sitting on the women and equalities committee, which discussed Gender Recognition Act reforms, was the requirement of two years living “in role” as the opposite sex before changing a birth certificate. “How do you live in role as a man? Have I got to use a spanner? No one could answer that. I’ve got short hair. I’m wearing trousers. Like, it’s not an act, is it? You can’t act like a woman, because we’re all different.”

She is aghast that the modern left seeks to legitimise, even idealise, prostitution, which through her long experience in the refuge movement she sees as sexual abuse. She uses the term “prostituted women” rather than the woke euphemism “sex workers”. Moreover, she’s long been concerned about long-standing women’s refuges losing funds in favour of generic services that purport to include everyone. “If you had £1 million for domestic violence services, you’d give £800,000 to a women’s refuge based on need and numbers. Having specialist services for LGBT or male victims of domestic abuse is totally brilliant and legitimate. They’re not the same. They need different services.”

OP posts:
zanahoria · 17/07/2021 12:00

“But I genuinely think the only way a woman will win is if men don’t stand – an all-woman shortlist.”

Jess ran last time saying Labour needed a woman leader but after she dropped out she backed Keir Starmer.

CharlieParley · 17/07/2021 12:12

An interesting read, thanks for posting ItsAllGoingToBeFine.

JP might not want to jump off the fence, but I fear in the eyes of the most vocal extremists she has condemned herself with this article. Maybe she hasn't quite realised what is now required from our politicians in terms of reality denial and language, but her words will see her attacked as a confirmed transphobe.

Politics was and still is always about compromise, which is reflected in much of what she says. But the GRA was a compromise to placate the church, which is why Labour did not even allow a consideration of the GRA's impact on women. It was a compromise where both sides agreed to give something away that wasn't theirs to give - women's rights. Which is why to women's rights campaigners like me who oppose self-id further compromise is not only not acceptable, it's not possible. And that is something we will have a hard time explaining to politicians like JP whose instinct is that compromise will get you there.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 17/07/2021 12:14

“But I genuinely think the only way a woman will win is if men don’t stand – an all-woman shortlist.”

The massive elephant in this room is who would be eligible for the all-woman shortlist.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 17/07/2021 12:21

@somethinginoffensive

Having specialist services for LGBT or male victims of domestic abuse is totally brilliant and legitimate. They’re not the same. They need different services.

This is where LGBT doesn't work as a group. It's a mix of women and men who are same sex attracted, alongside bisexual men and women, and men and women who say they are the opposite sex or non-binary.

That's a whole random range of people.

Yes, the whole LGBT or male thing is nonsense. It should simply be female or male refuges.

Male sevices can provide for straight men, gay men, bi men, or males of any gender identity. Jess saying LGBT OR male is odd. GBT males are just male, why would they need separatating? Lesbians, being female, would use female services.

If they need a specialist trans refuge they can set it up themselves and fundraise like women have always done.

Skybluepinkgiraffe · 17/07/2021 12:23

I thought it was a well written article, and I'm glad that trans issues were discussed. I thought JP came across very well.
I'll be interested to see whether she gets treated the same as JKR for saying similar things.
I am so relieved that we are now reading about these things in MSM. For ages the average reader has not known what's been going on.

NeedNewKnees · 17/07/2021 12:25

Love that skewering of Owen Jones

YetAnotherSpartacus · 17/07/2021 12:28

...How do you live in role as a man?" ....

You can't just choose to do this.

Male identity and privilege is reserved for those embodied as male.

OvaHere · 17/07/2021 12:36

@zanahoria

“But I genuinely think the only way a woman will win is if men don’t stand – an all-woman shortlist.”

Jess ran last time saying Labour needed a woman leader but after she dropped out she backed Keir Starmer.

I don't really understand the thinking behind this. I oppose AWSL being anything other than female but they're ignoring the bigger issue here which is why they're necessary in Labour?

Every other major political party has had female leaders at this point except Labour. Why? That's what they should be addressing.

JaniceBattersby · 17/07/2021 12:40

I like her, and I think that she does represent the views of many GC feminists in that she knows that biology exists and that trans women are not women, but she’ll use she / her pronouns around people presenting as women because she doesn’t want to hurt them or embarrass them.

She’s not daft. She knows that’s as far as she can go right now.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/07/2021 12:54

I also like her. It's a shame that she's unable to influence Starmer to step away from the "TWAW - end of statement" and critical thinking that's he's backed himself into. Hopefully as the scandals rack up and the Olympics hit public opinion, more voters will spot his flat earthism and start challenging him about safeguarding and women's rights. Hopefully.

Thelnebriati · 17/07/2021 13:05

Jess Phillips didnt try to influence Starmer; she agreed with him. She stated 'TWAW' right here on Mumsnet.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/3797731-Webchat-with-Labour-leadership-contender-Jess-Phillips-MP-on-Monday-January-20-at-1pm?msgid=93272754

Skybluepinkgiraffe · 17/07/2021 13:10

That suggests to me that she's had a rethink over the last 6 months after seeing how many people don't think TWAW.
I think she needs to be careful to stop her career from going down the pan. She won't be able to do much for Labour or women if she's sacked or silenced.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/07/2021 13:15

[quote Thelnebriati]Jess Phillips didnt try to influence Starmer; she agreed with him. She stated 'TWAW' right here on Mumsnet.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/3797731-Webchat-with-Labour-leadership-contender-Jess-Phillips-MP-on-Monday-January-20-at-1pm?msgid=93272754[/quote]
So this interview is a shift for her then? I think that's really important.

People are going to have to change their views. The prisons issue, sports, naked penises in front of children etc are not going to stop. It will get worse and, as is often said on here, the backlash will be immense as the safeguarding issues escalate, the teenagers reach maturity and realise what they've done to their bodies and so on.
If Jess is now prepared to acknowledge the reality of women's bodies, lives and experiences and openly say that they are not the same as men, then that's progress. Not much I acknowledge but I am channeling my inner optimist on this sunny day. Wink

Thelnebriati · 17/07/2021 13:23

I don't have much faith in people who have had difficulty locating their spine when it mattered; especially if we are just expected to take what they say today at face value, without any explanation or apology.

TheNextSteps · 17/07/2021 13:29

She’s going to come in for a huge amount of flack. Sticking the boot into Owen Jones will cause ructions no doubt. I wonder what Keir will think?

LazyViper · 17/07/2021 13:34

Keir probably loathes OJ as much as OJ detests him. No love lost there.

HermioneWeasley · 17/07/2021 13:38

She’s a disappointment. She’s a female Labour MP who is pretty untouchable- they can’t just deselect her if she tells the truth. And she still throws vulnerable women under the bus with the failure to tell the truth. She knows perfectly well what self ID would mean for refuges and still refuses to condemn it in order to further her career.

Shameful

Violetparis · 17/07/2021 13:43

I think this article is progress but I find some of it contradictory. Jess says biological sex exists and agrees trans woman are not female but then talks about a trans woman she met at a social club who was 'a woman to me'. Confused

Floisme · 17/07/2021 13:44

I wouldn't describe someone who stands up in the House of Commons every year and reads out the names of murdered women as having no spine. My guess is that Phillips is by instinct a consensual politician - and yes, ambitious too - and that even now she's hoping compromise will win the day. Where I do criticise her is over her silence (as far as I'm aware) over the bullying of Rosie Duffield.

merrymouse · 17/07/2021 13:56

If Jess is now prepared to acknowledge the reality of women's bodies, lives and experiences and openly say that they are not the same as men, then that's progress. Not much I acknowledge but I am channeling my inner optimist on this sunny day.

Agree.

I think she would argue that she is very focused on creating specific legislation on and talking about self ID legislation doesn’t help with that.

However, policy changes in prisons and the judiciary have taken place without legislation being passed - institutions are advised to ‘anticipate’ changes in the law even when that contradicts existing law.

merrymouse · 17/07/2021 13:57

Where I do criticise her is over her silence (as far as I'm aware) over the bullying of Rosie Duffield.

Agree

merrymouse · 17/07/2021 13:58

“she is very focused on creating specific legislation on things like domestic violence.”

TheLeadbetterLife · 17/07/2021 14:01

Jess Phillips is great. I’m 100% sure she is gender critical, but she is also - wisely - very good at realpolitik, because she likes to get stuff done.

Some people need to do the activism and have the ideological arguments, others need to work on policy, which sometimes involves a bit of compromise on ideology. If this seems like speaking out of both sides of her mouth to some people, so be it. Her achievements speak for themselves.

Ideology is all well and good, but corbyn was an ideologue and achieved bugger all (except almost destroying the Labour Party).

somethinginoffensive · 17/07/2021 14:04

Where I do criticise her is over her silence (as far as I'm aware) over the bullying of Rosie Duffield.

Kier Starmer has behaved shamefully by just ignoring that bullying. That misogynistic bullying is acceptable in the Labour Party is his fault.

Floisme · 17/07/2021 14:07

I also think Phillips will have realised that simply agreeing to be interviewed by Janice Turner would be seen in some quarters as a signal. My guess is that it was a considered and deliberate choice - she must surely have known Janice would raise the issue. I'm taking it as a sign of progress.

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