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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

I don’t think I’m transphobic but can you sense check me please

202 replies

Greenwateringcan · 15/07/2021 07:45

I’m a regular poster on mumsnet, I don’t post here usually. I’ve name changed because I don’t want this linked to my usual name. I am sure mumsnet will confirm if needed.

I’m in my 50s and female - born female. I don’t have an issue with trans people at all, I’m not really gender critical, but I do have some issues with how to manage protection of women’s spaces and sport for example.

I’m not a campaigner, not a protestor on trans issues, I generally try to just get on with my life.

I’m in a feminist group on Facebook. Or rather. I was. I’ve just been kicked out a few months ago for being transphobic and I really don’t think I am or was and I would really like a sense check please.

The group has young trans women in it who are very vocal and drive a lot of the discussion. One of the discussions was around dating and how or when to tell a potential partner they were trans.

To cut a long story short, the trans woman in question felt that anyone they dated should be open to having sex with them, regardless of their trans status. And that if someone didn’t want to have sex with them they were automatically transphobic.

I disagreed and said that my sex life was one area of my life where I was perfectly entitled to be discriminatory. I don’t have to have sex with anyone I don’t want to for any reason and that is my right.

I also said that they had to accept that by being trans, without any surgery, meant that they would find it more difficult to get a partner as people who were attracted to men might not like how they presented, and people who were attracted to women would have an issue with the fact that they still had their male genitalia and that as a straight woman I wouldn’t be attracted to them, as my sexual preference is for males who present as male.

They launched a slanging match at me, as did their friends, and told me I was transphobic for not wanting to have sex with them. I ended up being kicked out of the group because I wasn’t accepting of trans women as women.

I promise I’m not a troll I’ve worried about this a lot - am I transphobic? I try to be inclusive and understanding in my life of all kinds of difference and I don’t give a stuff how many one wants to present, I’ll use whatever pronoun people want, and I’ll happily share a bathroom space with them but I don’t see how I can be made to check my thinking and sleep with someone I don’t want to

I know I’m being discriminating in as much as I wouldn’t want to have sex with a trans woman, but that’s because I’m straight and their presentation doesn’t turn me on (sorry) but I could equally say that about someone with a big nose or bad breath or any number of other things that would make me not attracted to someone.

Can you tell me if you think I was or am wrong? I’m asking here because I know you all have a much better handle on the issues than me and better language to express the issues.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 15/07/2021 11:30

the comments around who is attracted to whom and that people who were attracted to women would have an issue with the fact that they still had their male genitalia.

People who were attracted to both men and women may not have an issue with male genitalia, women who are solely attracted to women would. If you're suggesting these women are 'transphobic' then you are demonstrating that the accusation of 'transphobia' is basic anti-gay sentiment. HTH.

3beesinmybonnet · 15/07/2021 11:35

Entitled people don't like the word No. They shout their opinions to make up for being wrong.
Of course you're not transphobic.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 15/07/2021 11:42

We had a man who owed to stomp into our office and make demands - by which I mean he would expect us to drop other clients work, bump their sessions, reschedule their bookings - for HIM (and he would always try to wangle discount/free). If we didn’t he would complain to our boss that we were being racist (including my Caribbean colleague).

Oh, he was a very entitled little man.

CorvusPurpureus · 15/07/2021 11:45

& this is basically why you can't win, ever, with the TRA types.

You're a straight woman so you don't want to go to bed with another woman. Therefore you don't want to sleep with someone who is male but identifies as a woman because you're put off by their gender identity/feminine presentation...so apparently that's transphobic.

But if you'd said you'd actually be theoretically open to sleeping with a transwoman because you like male bodies & they have male bodies...also that would have been denounced as transphobic, presumably, because it would indicate that you don't see them as women.

Or if you happened to be a lesbian & not been interested because of the male body thing...yes, congratulations, you've just been transphobic again Hmm.

There is literally NO stance you can take as a woman that won't be howled down as 'transphobic', unless you decide to have lots of lovely 'lesbian sex' with any bepenised person who fancies you, as far as I can see, whether you like the idea or not. Saying 'no thanks' is automatically 'transphobic', but so is the wrong kind of 'yes please'.

So at this point, I think it's time to give up & let them just bang on about transphobia to take their minds off not getting laid?

It's a shame for all the perfectly nice, sensible trans people out there, but as far as women are concerned, I reckon we can quite reasonably leave them to thrash it all out amongst themselves, if the alternatives are a) baseless accusations of 'transphobia' or b) rapey dishonest sex with abusive people we don't fancy.

VexedofVirginiaWater · 15/07/2021 12:21

They weren't very sparing of OP's feeling though.

Triphazards · 15/07/2021 13:17

They invented a new sort of people, who are "trans," then they invented the dreadful sin of transphobia, which everyone is perpetrating against the trans people.

Imasoulman · 15/07/2021 13:27

@Triphazards

They invented a new sort of people, who are "trans," then they invented the dreadful sin of transphobia, which everyone is perpetrating against the trans people.
Ohh you learn something new everyday. So who are "they who invented trans" I'm very keen to learn more.

Also when was transphobia invented?

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 15/07/2021 13:36

the trans woman in question felt that anyone they dated should be open to having sex with them, regardless of their trans status. And that if someone didn’t want to have sex with them they were automatically transphobic.

Green, what does that tell you about this person? Unreasonable, self-entitled, feeling entitled to demand sex with women? Is that feminist? Far from it. And those backing this person -- I don't know why they would bother to call themselves feminist, when they automatically back an aggressive male against an unaggressive woman.

EBearhug · 15/07/2021 13:37

You have the right to refuse to have sex with anyone for any reason.

This. They might tick all my personal boxes about attraction, and I can still say no. I might have slept with them before, and I can still say no. And someone's right to say no to sex at any point should trump everything else. It's only consensual if both parties are fully consenting.

BelleClapper · 15/07/2021 13:37

‘Trans’ was a deliberate conflation of transsexual/transgender/transvestite into one apparently persecuted minority.

I can’t remember the woman’s name but there’s an interview with her I read recently, I think she’s the woman who set up the Beaumont society. It was a deliberate language shift.

BlackeyedSusan · 15/07/2021 14:04

they are advocating rape. sex that is coerced through pressure is rape. everybody has the right to say no for whatever reason at any stage. you do not even have to consider them no is no.

you are well out of this group as they are saying that it is ok to have sex with someone that does not want to have sex with them. RAPE. abusive and against the law.

Etorih · 15/07/2021 14:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BelleClapper · 15/07/2021 14:12

Why was Etorih deleted?

I read the post and I’ve no idea what was delete worthy?

Original poster
Greenwateringcan · 15/07/2021 14:25

I didn’t see it can anyone summarise?

OP posts:
ScreamingMeMe · 15/07/2021 14:31

A lot of these activists are just over entitled youngsters who like to push peoples buttons.
They actually do more harm than good for the trans community.

Yep. You must find them infuriating!

Skybluepinkgiraffe · 15/07/2021 14:35

Thank you for posting this @Greenwateringcan
I think I'm a lot similar to you in the way I see it, and I'm hugely grateful to you for starting this thread, and for the interesting contributions from other posters.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 15/07/2021 14:57

So who are "they who invented trans" I'm very keen to learn more.

I interpreted this as more of a comment about Stonewall's popularisation of a trans umbrella - and a substantial number of people might be startled to be placed under that.

It does feel as if there is a disconnect between a nebulous shared understanding and contemporary identity politics.

I may be mistaken.

Megasausagehead · 15/07/2021 15:07

So, by their reckoning:

A pan sexual would HAVE TO fuck everyone on the planet.

alkanet · 15/07/2021 15:32

Take the trans out of it & try it with bisexual. I'm bi, I like men & women. If I ask a lesbian for a date she may say yes, she may say no. If it's no, maybe she's just not into me. Maybe she would prefer another lesbian or perhaps she just doesn't like my flowery frocks. The reason is unimportant and her choice. If I then push myself & try to persuade, coerce or guilt trip her into sleeping with me, that really makes me a bit of a manipulative creepy perve.

I can't imagine the women in your FB group being cheerleaders for me if I exhibited that sort of behaviour.

Imasoulman · 15/07/2021 15:47

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

So who are "they who invented trans" I'm very keen to learn more.

I interpreted this as more of a comment about Stonewall's popularisation of a trans umbrella - and a substantial number of people might be startled to be placed under that.

It does feel as if there is a disconnect between a nebulous shared understanding and contemporary identity politics.

I may be mistaken.

Fair point, yes I can see that
Skybluepinkgiraffe · 15/07/2021 16:06

I love it when a trans person is willing to join the debate @Imasoulman Flowers
I like when debate means that people on either side are willing to change their minds in the face of new information.

abettercat · 15/07/2021 16:41

You're not transphobic! Like all women's spaces these days, your group has been infiltrated by rapey men.

ShortBacknSides · 15/07/2021 19:38

I honestly wouldn’t discriminate in my every day life but I feel entitled to discriminate when it comes to who i have sex with? Am I?

No you're not transphobic. The people who said that
anyone they dated should be open to having sex with them, regardless of their trans status. And that if someone didn’t want to have sex with them they were automatically transphobic
is rapey as fuck.

Entitled and rapey.

ShortBacknSides · 15/07/2021 19:47

What is it about the way they present their views that made me so scared to speak up bluntly like I would’ve done to a lesbian and even to a man who I didn’t want to have sex with?

Sex shows ...

And socialisation into sex-based stereotypes shows ...

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 15/07/2021 19:53

@ShortBacknSides

What is it about the way they present their views that made me so scared to speak up bluntly like I would’ve done to a lesbian and even to a man who I didn’t want to have sex with?

Sex shows ...

And socialisation into sex-based stereotypes shows ...

Agreed. And the community had been manipulated into supporting them, not you. There would be lots of rewards for supporting them and none for standing by the woman who was being subjected to covert competition and reputational harm.

NB: the covert competition is standing by a man and supporting him, and being seen to be kind even when it involves self-harm, rather than being a friend to other women and acknowledging their right to be autonomous human beings.

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