I don’t think I’m transphobic but can you sense check me please

[Greenwateringcan]

I’m a regular poster on mumsnet, I don’t post here usually. I’ve name changed because I don’t want this linked to my usual name. I am sure mumsnet will confirm if needed.

I’m in my 50s and female - born female. I don’t have an issue with trans people at all, I’m not really gender critical, but I do have some issues with how to manage protection of women’s spaces and sport for example.

I’m not a campaigner, not a protestor on trans issues, I generally try to just get on with my life.

I’m in a feminist group on Facebook. Or rather. I was. I’ve just been kicked out a few months ago for being transphobic and I really don’t think I am or was and I would really like a sense check please.

The group has young trans women in it who are very vocal and drive a lot of the discussion. One of the discussions was around dating and how or when to tell a potential partner they were trans.

To cut a long story short, the trans woman in question felt that anyone they dated should be open to having sex with them, regardless of their trans status. And that if someone didn’t want to have sex with them they were automatically transphobic.

I disagreed and said that my sex life was one area of my life where I was perfectly entitled to be discriminatory. I don’t have to have sex with anyone I don’t want to for any reason and that is my right.

I also said that they had to accept that by being trans, without any surgery, meant that they would find it more difficult to get a partner as people who were attracted to men might not like how they presented, and people who were attracted to women would have an issue with the fact that they still had their male genitalia and that as a straight woman I wouldn’t be attracted to them, as my sexual preference is for males who present as male.

They launched a slanging match at me, as did their friends, and told me I was transphobic for not wanting to have sex with them. I ended up being kicked out of the group because I wasn’t accepting of trans women as women.

I promise I’m not a troll I’ve worried about this a lot - am I transphobic? I try to be inclusive and understanding in my life of all kinds of difference and I don’t give a stuff how many one wants to present, I’ll use whatever pronoun people want, and I’ll happily share a bathroom space with them but I don’t see how I can be made to check my thinking and sleep with someone I don’t want to

I know I’m being discriminating in as much as I wouldn’t want to have sex with a trans woman, but that’s because I’m straight and their presentation doesn’t turn me on (sorry) but I could equally say that about someone with a big nose or bad breath or any number of other things that would make me not attracted to someone.

Can you tell me if you think I was or am wrong? I’m asking here because I know you all have a much better handle on the issues than me and better language to express the issues.

Have sex with me!
Not sure you’re my type...
Come in - it will be great!
Oh well ok, we get in well and we do have a connection, maybe...
YOU MUST YOU MUST YOU MUST

Yes that a clincher.

Both female and woman are descriptions of sex. There is no such thing as "cis", it is a superfluous in-group label most people don't apply to themselves, and you're assuming it on the part of the OP who hasn't stated her personal identity.

Ooookkk.
You told them you’re a straight woman and you said you didn’t want to have sex with trans women, right? By the usual logic that should be fine: trans women, we are told, are women. So, as a straight woman, it would be often be considered transphobic for you to fancy them (in that it would imply that you were recognising and prioritising their male bodies over their declared gender identity as women). This is why trans women (or to be more exact, a subset of aggressive trans rights activists) are so frightening and arguably dangerous to lesbians: as PP have said, they tell young girls who are attracted only to women with women’s bodies that this is transphobic and that lesbians, unless they wish to be considered transphobes, should be open to sex with bearded people with penises if those hirsute penis-havers merely say they identify as women. (Google ‘cotton ceiling’.) I find this pretty abhorrent: as you and PP have said, sexual taste is not controlled by political belief. I don’t hate women or significantly younger men, but also I’m definitely not going to bed with any of them because they’re not my cup of tea.
So no, OP, you are not transphobic. You are a kind and very open-minded and accepting person. The people you have been talking to are not so kind, by the sounds of it, and are also either confused about their own identity and what it means, or not arguing in good faith.

I if it’s any comments that use the C word. It’s especially irritating as my sister used to call us (all the sisters) ‘sis’.

Quite. A lot of harm can be caused by a “kind” lie.

The standard I aspire to in communication is to ask “is it true, is it kind, is it helpful?” And agreeing with trans people that other people’s sexual orientations are abusive or exclusionary to them is none of those things. It won’t serve them in the real world.

Also assuming that OP is cis…and I thought we should never assume people’s identities?

Spot on. Those who genuinely believed they were fighting for a vulnerable minority have my sympathy. The creeps trying to get our friends to cut us off , our employers to sack, us can rot in hell.

You're basically saying in that paragraph above that nobody who is attracted to women will find them attractive, which I'd imagine would be very triggering for somebody who believes that they are a woman in spite of the genitalia they were born with

Reality can be harsh. People believe all sorts of things. They aren't actually women in the way most people understand the word, and never will be. That's nothing to do with the "genitals they were born with". It's to do with their sex. You misuse both female and woman due to your ideological beliefs. They are sex-based words. Males don't meet the criteria.

I’ve been listening to a radio programme about the children sent to Australia from the U.K. as child migrants from orphanages. Years of sexual, physical and emotional abuse. Paedophile rings. Life of heartache.

So who is fighting for these people? Their lives have been f**d. But no - big pharma and business aren’t lobbing ££££ for these people. Not fabulous enough, eh?

@toffeebutterpopcorn

I’ve been listening to a radio programme about the children sent to Australia from the U.K. as child migrants from orphanages. Years of sexual, physical and emotional abuse. Paedophile rings. Life of heartache.

So who is fighting for these people? Their lives have been f**d. But no - big pharma and business aren’t lobbing ££££ for these people. Not fabulous enough, eh?

I’m sorry but how is that relevant to my thread?

Just about control

Don’t do what I tell you and think what I tell you

Agree with me or we will kick you out

You didn’t back down so you were kicked out and beaten with that stick transphobia

It’s weird how we have got to the point where a woman can’t decide who she would have sex with is now called transphobic

Control and total acceptance is all that’s acceptable

You are right op.
But some people view this as transphobic.
And therefore what you said could be perceived as a bit antagonistic.
But you are completely correct.
🤷🏻‍♀️

I’m sorry but how is that relevant to my thread?

I think she means to compare the disproportionate amount of pandering to a largely privileged group of people, over the lack of interest in people who have suffered real trauma in life.

Rather than get further bogged down in all these meaningless post-modern linguistic gymnastics, let's cut to the chase:

Some people like cock.
Some people like fanny.
Some people like both.

If you like fanny, a bloke with tits isn't going to cut it for you.
If you like cock, a lass with a beard isn't going to cut if for you.
If you like both, then you might be sexually accepting of blokes with tits and lasses with beards.

Oh, and it's OK to have preferences.

Control and total acceptance is all that’s acceptable

Absolutely. It's all about power, control and dominance displays. Forcing people to lie when they clearly don't believe it, or having others turn on them on your behalf, is a massive power trip.

I had the same conversation in a group.
Being called transphobic by them is because they have no other comeback.

If you don't fancy someone,you don't have a relationship.

Where it ends is just an internet echo chamber. It doesn’t matter how many trans women get cross about wrong think and demand people sleep with them. In real life people DO have the right to have sexual preferences and they DO have the right to say no to sexual contact.

Oh and to add the only thing you did wrong was to write it down.

Imagine coming into a FEMINIST group and arguing that everyone should be open to sleeping with you. How did we get here?

Their attitudes sound deeply male. Of course there are men who are very respectful and great at dealing with issues of consent and there are women who try and push boundaries and get upset if someone doesn't want to sleep with them, but if we're talking generalities, it's a rather male thing to tell people they're mean and wrong for not wanting to have sex with you.

YANBU, OP. When it comes to sex, everyone can discriminate in whatever way they see fit - probably the only area where that's ok. You can allow and disallow access to your body from whoever you want. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

You may well be transphobic according to the ideology definition, but then, everything is.

But you're not bigoted or prejudiced for knowing that sexual orientation exists and consent is paramount. In fact, you are very sensible, wise and I salute you. I saw a transwoman get shit all over in a facebook group recently because they dared to say that trans issues were very different to LGB issues. Because certain transactivist people view it as a powerplay, and don't actually care about trans people at all. You sound like you do, and moreover you sound like you care about women and boundaries.

So I think you're alright.

If I tattooed my face. And then went on to a group bemoaning I couldn’t get a date. Surely to goodness someone would at some point be allowed to say. You have to accept that by tattooing your face you’re narrowing the pool of people who will date you.

That’s not hate. It’s realistic.

In a job interview you're not allowed to discriminate based on sex, gender reassignment, age, etc etc. You're supposed to be objective and dispassionate.

Choosing a sexual partner is not a job interview. It's subjective, not objective. You sleep with someone if you both fancy each other and both want to, and you certainly don't have to justify your decision not to.

It's not discrimination: it's a deeply personal issue that you don't need to justify to anyone.

No one is entitled to demand sex or to expect that someone will have sex with them. To do so is abusive.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I’m sorry but how is that relevant to my thread?

I think she means to compare the disproportionate amount of pandering to a largely privileged group of people, over the lack of interest in people who have suffered real trauma in life.

Yes that. Although I hate the term ‘first world problems’ I do think that the type of people who have bullied the OP in that group would do better to think about the real world and real people.

You are not transphobic, you have a preference.
Trans individuals should disclose they are trans before sexual acts take place, for their own safety. If a man sleeps with who he believes to be a female and it turns out to be born a man then changed, anger could cause real harm.
When it comes down to sex, you can have whatever preference you like, there's nothing wrong with that and honesty is better all around.