I don’t think I’m transphobic but can you sense check me please

[Greenwateringcan]

I’m a regular poster on mumsnet, I don’t post here usually. I’ve name changed because I don’t want this linked to my usual name. I am sure mumsnet will confirm if needed.

I’m in my 50s and female - born female. I don’t have an issue with trans people at all, I’m not really gender critical, but I do have some issues with how to manage protection of women’s spaces and sport for example.

I’m not a campaigner, not a protestor on trans issues, I generally try to just get on with my life.

I’m in a feminist group on Facebook. Or rather. I was. I’ve just been kicked out a few months ago for being transphobic and I really don’t think I am or was and I would really like a sense check please.

The group has young trans women in it who are very vocal and drive a lot of the discussion. One of the discussions was around dating and how or when to tell a potential partner they were trans.

To cut a long story short, the trans woman in question felt that anyone they dated should be open to having sex with them, regardless of their trans status. And that if someone didn’t want to have sex with them they were automatically transphobic.

I disagreed and said that my sex life was one area of my life where I was perfectly entitled to be discriminatory. I don’t have to have sex with anyone I don’t want to for any reason and that is my right.

I also said that they had to accept that by being trans, without any surgery, meant that they would find it more difficult to get a partner as people who were attracted to men might not like how they presented, and people who were attracted to women would have an issue with the fact that they still had their male genitalia and that as a straight woman I wouldn’t be attracted to them, as my sexual preference is for males who present as male.

They launched a slanging match at me, as did their friends, and told me I was transphobic for not wanting to have sex with them. I ended up being kicked out of the group because I wasn’t accepting of trans women as women.

I promise I’m not a troll I’ve worried about this a lot - am I transphobic? I try to be inclusive and understanding in my life of all kinds of difference and I don’t give a stuff how many one wants to present, I’ll use whatever pronoun people want, and I’ll happily share a bathroom space with them but I don’t see how I can be made to check my thinking and sleep with someone I don’t want to

I know I’m being discriminating in as much as I wouldn’t want to have sex with a trans woman, but that’s because I’m straight and their presentation doesn’t turn me on (sorry) but I could equally say that about someone with a big nose or bad breath or any number of other things that would make me not attracted to someone.

Can you tell me if you think I was or am wrong? I’m asking here because I know you all have a much better handle on the issues than me and better language to express the issues.

@BlackAmericanoNoSugar

I agree that everyone can choose their own sexual partners by whatever criteria they want. Insisting that people consider sex with people that they don't fancy is approaching coercive sex, which is rape. Because why would you insist that someone 'consider' having sex. People who say that don't really mean 'consider', if I openly say that I wouldn't have sex with an intact trans woman then I HAVE considered it and decided not to. They are saying 'consider' but they mean to put women in a position where they will be called transphobic for refusing to have sex.

Yes! That’s it!! Thank you.

I said - I’ve thought about it and I know I would never want to - and I was told that was transphobic.

I generally have sex with a body, not a gender.

So why do I feel I have to be so much more careful with my language around trans women?

Because we all know they will possibly become angry, volatile and aggressive if not validated by others. And that their friends of both sexes will join in, even our friends because they don't want to get the same treatment.

Because we've all seen it happen to other women. Chilling effect. It's not nice to have to walk on eggshells around the egos and feelings of others.

YANBU, op.

And you’re not alone, trans/women’s rights conflicts have blown up several fb groups that I’m on, most of them female oriented.

This will all pass in time, and people will be able to discuss this without everything descending into conflict and recriminations. And I will easily be able to forgive and move on with people who genuinely thought they were fighting for the underdog, who really thought they were doing good. I won’t be able to do so for the viscious ideologues who have used this topic as a campaign to bully, dominate and destroy the livelihoods of women who disagree- no, for those people, I’m keeping the receipts.

Chin up, OP, Facebook isn’t real life, and you get to live to your own standards

What is it about the way they present their views that made me so scared to speak up bluntly like I would’ve done to a lesbian and even to a man who I didn’t want to have sex with?

This is a "your sexual orientation doesn't apply to me" movement. Of course its members will be more self-centred and less respectful of others' feelings than other groups.

Plus you seem to be an environment where this group is enabled, which makes them even more threatening. The lack of backup for your "no" is a big problem. Other men would be just as threatening in an environment where your no to them wouldn't be respected.

Yes you are right, NecessaryScene.

I think the use of the word ‘preference’ is tricky in this conversation. It’s not that I prefer to have sex with men, I ONLY have sex with men - and (when single) only a very tiny % of men met my criteria. If you are a lesbian it’s not that you prefer not to sleep with men (implying that you might) it’s that you don’t, ever.

So would a trans woman therefore allow themselves to be persuaded into having sex with a trans woman/man (depending on sexual orientation)? Do the same ‘rules’ apply?

I think the use of the word ‘preference’ is tricky in this conversation. It’s not that I prefer to have sex with men, I ONLY have sex with men - and (when single) only a very tiny % of men met my criteria.

I agree. I've come across a few posts from presumably bisexual people in the past few days who don't appear to grasp that there are homosexual and heterosexual people.

Nobody is entitled to sex from anyone. Ever.

So would a trans woman therefore allow themselves to be persuaded into having sex with a trans woman

I've heard some say that they wouldn't because it "triggers their dysphoria".

I don't understand who benefits from the message "if someone doesn't give you everything you want, they hate you!"

Trans people aren't benefiting from feeling hated when something simply isn't about them, you're being made to feel hateful for having a sexual orientation. Who is causing the distress when, for example, a child is told that JKR hates them? It's not helping anyone, this hyperbole.

OP, you are not remotely transphobic, you just have boundaries and can see the benefits to an uncomfortable truth over a comfortable lie - the benefits to everyone, those who need to hear it and those too scared to speak.

Of course you’re not.

I also said that they had to accept that by being trans, without any surgery, meant that they would find it more difficult to get a partner as people who were attracted to men might not like how they presented, and people who were attracted to women would have an issue with the fact that they still had their male genitalia and that as a straight woman I wouldn’t be attracted to them, as my sexual preference is for males who present as male.

I wonder if this is what really what triggered them. I'd imagine a cis female telling a trans female what they have to accept and what people find attractive and what people will take issue with over their genitalia would probably rub them up the wrong way. Those are your opinions (which you're entitled to) but the above suggests that you told them what everybody else's opinion is too, and you don't speak for everybody. You're basically saying in that paragraph above that nobody who is attracted to women will find them attractive, which I'd imagine would be very triggering for somebody who believes that they are a woman in spite of the genitalia they were born with. I appreciate that it was said as part of a larger conversation about consent (and I wholeheartedly agree with you that it's not cool not to tell somebody that you are trans before getting into bed with them) but I do think that you crossed the line with your later comments.

That is some extreme entitlement right there. If you needed anymore proof that transwomen are men just say 'no' to one and watch how they react.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

So would a trans woman therefore allow themselves to be persuaded into having sex with a trans woman

I've heard some say that they wouldn't because it "triggers their dysphoria".

Yet this whole ‘demand or I’ll call you ‘phobic’ things is ok?

I can’t remember the exact words I used, I have a feeling I said “im sorry but as much as you may not like it, you probably have to accept” or “might have to accept” - I know I prefaced it with “I’m sorry” and something to the effect of you will not like this - but if I said that in that way that’s fair comment.

@ufucoffee

Of course you aren't. The feminist group you were in on FB has men in it. And look what's happened.

This. I can’t believe this is where we are.

Would I ever want to sleep with someone who wants my type? No thanks. Would I ever want to sleep with someone who is essentially bullying me into it? Run for the hills!

It’s like when I was a teenager and the whole ‘if you loved me... your frigid/lesbian...I’ll tell everyone you did anyway, you slag’

(And of course I can’t go and check the words I used because I’m banned from the group)

Yet this whole ‘demand or I’ll call you ‘phobic’ things is ok?

Trans activists are not known for their consistent standards.

It would be transphobic to say you would consider having sex with any potential partner. Because that is not the way you would regard any potential partner regardless of gender, sex or any other attribute. Rape can still exist within marriage for crying out loud! Consent is always required!

I'd imagine a cis female telling a trans female what they have to accept

No one has the first idea what sex you are talking about with "trans female". See the problems when people misuse commonly understood words to suit their own agenda?

How come other ‘entitled’ groups get their arses handed back to them (I’m thinking of the group with the woman’s name).

I'd imagine a cis female telling a trans female what they have to accept and what people find attractive and what people will take issue with over their genitalia would probably rub them up the wrong way.

Is it better to lie to them and tell them most people wouldn't care?