I don’t think I’m transphobic but can you sense check me please

[Greenwateringcan]

I’m a regular poster on mumsnet, I don’t post here usually. I’ve name changed because I don’t want this linked to my usual name. I am sure mumsnet will confirm if needed.

I’m in my 50s and female - born female. I don’t have an issue with trans people at all, I’m not really gender critical, but I do have some issues with how to manage protection of women’s spaces and sport for example.

I’m not a campaigner, not a protestor on trans issues, I generally try to just get on with my life.

I’m in a feminist group on Facebook. Or rather. I was. I’ve just been kicked out a few months ago for being transphobic and I really don’t think I am or was and I would really like a sense check please.

The group has young trans women in it who are very vocal and drive a lot of the discussion. One of the discussions was around dating and how or when to tell a potential partner they were trans.

To cut a long story short, the trans woman in question felt that anyone they dated should be open to having sex with them, regardless of their trans status. And that if someone didn’t want to have sex with them they were automatically transphobic.

I disagreed and said that my sex life was one area of my life where I was perfectly entitled to be discriminatory. I don’t have to have sex with anyone I don’t want to for any reason and that is my right.

I also said that they had to accept that by being trans, without any surgery, meant that they would find it more difficult to get a partner as people who were attracted to men might not like how they presented, and people who were attracted to women would have an issue with the fact that they still had their male genitalia and that as a straight woman I wouldn’t be attracted to them, as my sexual preference is for males who present as male.

They launched a slanging match at me, as did their friends, and told me I was transphobic for not wanting to have sex with them. I ended up being kicked out of the group because I wasn’t accepting of trans women as women.

I promise I’m not a troll I’ve worried about this a lot - am I transphobic? I try to be inclusive and understanding in my life of all kinds of difference and I don’t give a stuff how many one wants to present, I’ll use whatever pronoun people want, and I’ll happily share a bathroom space with them but I don’t see how I can be made to check my thinking and sleep with someone I don’t want to

I know I’m being discriminating in as much as I wouldn’t want to have sex with a trans woman, but that’s because I’m straight and their presentation doesn’t turn me on (sorry) but I could equally say that about someone with a big nose or bad breath or any number of other things that would make me not attracted to someone.

Can you tell me if you think I was or am wrong? I’m asking here because I know you all have a much better handle on the issues than me and better language to express the issues.

Apart from the sex thing, I'm hearing more and more that when transwomen join women-only groups, it quickly becomes about them and their wants. The women don't get a look in and their language is rigorously policed. Lesbian friends of mine are finding their social life is shrinking as there are fewer and fewer places that aren't dominated by transwomen.

It's not transphobic to not want to be raped or sexually assaulted.

@Masdintle

Apart from the sex thing, I'm hearing more and more that when transwomen join women-only groups, it quickly becomes about them and their wants. The women don't get a look in and their language is rigorously policed. Lesbian friends of mine are finding their social life is shrinking as there are fewer and fewer places that aren't dominated by transwomen.

Was certainly my experience. Came out again in my forties and finding genuine lesbian spaces, online and off, has been like panning for gold. You'll see it on here too - the very worst is being called a gential fetishist, but the more insidious stuff is the coercive 'look at this person they look like a woman, you don't know until you try' and then when you still don't play, they say 'well, you can be exclusively same sex attracted, but could you just not talk about it so much, and no, you can't have the word lesbian anymore unless you accept that some lesbians have dicks'

Even if you were very careful with how you said it, they were probably a bit hurt by it. I think that most people don’t actually want to discuss issues, they just want you to agree with them.

@ufucoffee

Of course you aren't. The feminist group you were in on FB has men in it. And look what's happened.

This. Imagine it were a men's group and some trans men joined it. Can you imagine them hectoring the men and telling them they should sleep with them? No, I can't either. This is because women (and trans men are women) don't generally behave that way. The trans women in your group are doing this because identifying as female doesn't actually make you one and their behaviour proves it.

That is true radandmad

They would get told to clear off

I've seen transmen hectoring gay men for not considering sleeping with them too. Using really, really nasty homophobic slurs too. Obviously there isn't the power dynamic there is with a TW in a lesbian setting, but it does happen.

Transactivism is extremely homophobic.

@FloralBunting I've been immersed in this stuff for a couple of years now, and all I've ever come across was a trans man upset to find that the men weren't interested in her in a gay club. Never seen any kind of aggression from trans men, but the aggression from trans women is off the scale.

Even if you were very careful with how you said it, they were probably a bit hurt by it.

Tough. No-one is owed sexual attraction and it's not on the OP to pretend she's attracted to TW to spare their feelings.

I've seen transmen hectoring gay men for not considering sleeping with them too. Using really, really nasty homophobic slurs too.

The main difference is that gay men can tell them to fuck off and other gay men in the group won't pile on to them for being "transphobic".

They whole dynamic relies on women policing each others' compliance. Men don't really do that.

[quote RadandMad]@FloralBunting I've been immersed in this stuff for a couple of years now, and all I've ever come across was a trans man upset to find that the men weren't interested in her in a gay club. Never seen any kind of aggression from trans men, but the aggression from trans women is off the scale.[/quote]
Sadly, The Boxer Ceiling was disappeared from Facebook, but he collated a steady stream of absolutely sickening abuse towards gay men. Really upsetting stuff. Like I say, obviously not the same dynamic as the male aggression towards lesbians (always a big tell that someone isn't a lesbian when they threaten to 'throat*k' you for saying a flat no cos they're a dude) but it does happen.

Don't get me wrong, I am completely woman focused in my feminism, but I think it's important to acknowledge that some of the most vociferous homophobia I've seen towards gay men has come from transmen, often Christians.

Trans person on trans person's genitals: "it's none of your business"

Trans person on other people's genitals: "how dare you say it's not my business! You bigot!"

@Keepemguessing

Even if you were very careful with how you said it, they were probably a bit hurt by it.

Tough. No-one is owed sexual attraction and it's not on the OP to pretend she's attracted to TW to spare their feelings.

Quite. I am entirely past the point of giving a shit about whether people trying to coerce others into sex are hurt by being told they're rapey fuckers. Well, I was never there, so...

No you are definitely not transphobic.
You sound very well balanced and sensible with your attitude towards trans people.

A lot of these activists are just over entitled youngsters who like to push peoples buttons.
They actually do more harm than good for the trans community.

I'm a transwoman but I definitely do want to sleep with a man.
I also would never expect a woman to be sexually attracted to me.

I hope they haven't jaded your opinion.

*do not want to

To be honest @Imasoulman I don’t know that I’d call it jaded. I’m angry and hurt. But mostly angry the more I think about it.

Ok. I was deleted for using a factual term to describe transwomen but apparently it's against talk guidelines as it may be deemed goady. So are we allowed to say transwomen born male?

We are not allowed to reference the sex of a transperson unless it is directly relevant to the point, but as with all the special guidelines, this is an arbitrarily applied rule based on specific circumstances.

By which I mean, if it has been reported by a monitor and the mod agrees to deleye thecwoman who transgressed. Them's the rules.

@FloralBunting Really disappointed to hear that. Honestly thought women would have more empathy, but there's always some, I guess.

@FloralBunting

We are not allowed to reference the sex of a transperson unless it is directly relevant to the point, but as with all the special guidelines, this is an arbitrarily applied rule based on specific circumstances.

Ok. Thanks for that Floral. New here so wasnt aware. My deleted message still stands IMO, less the term I used if its deemed 'goady', which I wasnt trying to be. My point was that it's the same old shit isnt it. Control and entitlement over this whole thing is only coming in from one direction and from one sex class. Hope this comment hasnt broken any rules.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think the use of the word ‘preference’ is tricky in this conversation. It’s not that I prefer to have sex with men, I ONLY have sex with men - and (when single) only a very tiny % of men met my criteria.

I agree. I've come across a few posts from presumably bisexual people in the past few days who don't appear to grasp that there are homosexual and heterosexual people.

I think I know what you mean. It's like that pronouncement that a person who's been gay their whole lives can suddenly become 'not-gay' (this was in the context of detransitioners). The term 'ex-gay' was used. WTF is an 'ex gay?' Unless we are talking about conversion therapy, and this is a serious enough issue on its own.

Of incidental interest: I'm bisexual. I make a marked distinction between 'bisexual' and 'pansexual'. For me, these are not interchangeable. A bi-phobic pronouncement I've often heard (usually from conservative extended family members) is that bisexuals greedy, promiscuous and not particularly discriminating. Lately the bi-phobia emanating from the likes of the TRA brigade is that I should be prepared to fuck anyone without discrimination, and that nothing is off-limits.

If anything is prejudicial, bigoted bollocks, this is it. Right there. In fact, I'm discriminating about my sexual partners; have in fact been in a monogamous, 'heterosexual' marriage for 23 years, and have therefore disappeared from under the LGBT umbrella. As events have transpired, I'm glad I have.

As to OP, nothing other than complete capitulation and uncritical parroting of slogans and soundbites will do. Deviate even slightly from this and you're 'transphobic'. Oddly enough it's rapidly making the definition meaningless: I'd be far less concerned about having that label imposed on me now than I would have even a year ago. I have courageous women like Kathleen Stock, Sarah Phillimore, Maya Forstater, J K Rowling et al, to thank for that.

As for discussing the issue, the genitalia fetish TRAs seem to have but would like to project onto others, particularly lesbians, doesn't even need to come up. All that's necessary in this conversation is: 'I have the right to determine who I'm willing to have sex with, to say "No" at any stage, and to reject my sexual partners on any basis I choose. Anything other than this is coercion, or coercion by deception, which the law recognises as illegal even if you don't'.

But beware. As OP has discovered, entitled male-bodied people really don't like it when women say 'No'.

I've been saying MTF trans person/people for as long as the rules have been in place. It's a formal term commonly used, it doesn't "misgender", and means I can speak without being compelled to signal that I think any biologically male people are a sort of woman, which I don't, and which is my belief as upheld recently by the Court of Appeal.

You are not "transphobic" OP.

And implying that there is EVER a kind of obligation to have sex with someone is the polar opposite of consent.

No means no, for whatever reason you feel, nobody can police your consent.

This harks back to the days when a wife could not be legally raped by her husband - society had decided she was not entitled to refuse.

So yes, it is on a slippery slope to rape apology and I am pretty appalled that a "women's group" did not call this out.