I don’t think I’m transphobic but can you sense check me please

[Greenwateringcan]

I’m a regular poster on mumsnet, I don’t post here usually. I’ve name changed because I don’t want this linked to my usual name. I am sure mumsnet will confirm if needed.

I’m in my 50s and female - born female. I don’t have an issue with trans people at all, I’m not really gender critical, but I do have some issues with how to manage protection of women’s spaces and sport for example.

I’m not a campaigner, not a protestor on trans issues, I generally try to just get on with my life.

I’m in a feminist group on Facebook. Or rather. I was. I’ve just been kicked out a few months ago for being transphobic and I really don’t think I am or was and I would really like a sense check please.

The group has young trans women in it who are very vocal and drive a lot of the discussion. One of the discussions was around dating and how or when to tell a potential partner they were trans.

To cut a long story short, the trans woman in question felt that anyone they dated should be open to having sex with them, regardless of their trans status. And that if someone didn’t want to have sex with them they were automatically transphobic.

I disagreed and said that my sex life was one area of my life where I was perfectly entitled to be discriminatory. I don’t have to have sex with anyone I don’t want to for any reason and that is my right.

I also said that they had to accept that by being trans, without any surgery, meant that they would find it more difficult to get a partner as people who were attracted to men might not like how they presented, and people who were attracted to women would have an issue with the fact that they still had their male genitalia and that as a straight woman I wouldn’t be attracted to them, as my sexual preference is for males who present as male.

They launched a slanging match at me, as did their friends, and told me I was transphobic for not wanting to have sex with them. I ended up being kicked out of the group because I wasn’t accepting of trans women as women.

I promise I’m not a troll I’ve worried about this a lot - am I transphobic? I try to be inclusive and understanding in my life of all kinds of difference and I don’t give a stuff how many one wants to present, I’ll use whatever pronoun people want, and I’ll happily share a bathroom space with them but I don’t see how I can be made to check my thinking and sleep with someone I don’t want to

I know I’m being discriminating in as much as I wouldn’t want to have sex with a trans woman, but that’s because I’m straight and their presentation doesn’t turn me on (sorry) but I could equally say that about someone with a big nose or bad breath or any number of other things that would make me not attracted to someone.

Can you tell me if you think I was or am wrong? I’m asking here because I know you all have a much better handle on the issues than me and better language to express the issues.

Of incidental interest: I'm bisexual. I make a marked distinction between 'bisexual' and 'pansexual'. For me, these are not interchangeable. A bi-phobic pronouncement I've often heard (usually from conservative extended family members) is that bisexuals greedy, promiscuous and not particularly discriminating. Lately the bi-phobia emanating from the likes of the TRA brigade is that I should be prepared to fuck anyone without discrimination, and that nothing is off-limits.

I can completely understand you making that distinction.

I'm not sure which word has been used that we're not allowed to say now. Is it in the guidelines? Might have to have a reread. They change so often I can barely keep up (as does the structure of these boards and the location of the naughty corner).

So weary of this constant policing of women's legitimate concerns and language.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I've been saying MTF trans person/people for as long as the rules have been in place. It's a formal term commonly used, it doesn't "misgender", and means I can speak without being compelled to signal that I think any biologically male people are a sort of woman, which I don't, and which is my belief as upheld recently by the Court of Appeal.

Ok, so you can say it one way without being goady but an equally true and factual way of saying it another way is goady. Righty ho. Like Floral says, thems the rules. Got it.

Thanks for the heads up Ereshkigalangcleg.

@Keepemguessing

Even if you were very careful with how you said it, they were probably a bit hurt by it.

Tough. No-one is owed sexual attraction and it's not on the OP to pretend she's attracted to TW to spare their feelings.

She wanted to know why they called her transphobic and kicked her out of the group. I suspect it is because they felt hurt. I didn’t say that they were right.

Of course you can choose to not spare people’s feelings and say that they aren’t attractive.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

I'm not sure which word has been used that we're not allowed to say now. Is it in the guidelines? Might have to have a reread. They change so often I can barely keep up (as does the structure of these boards and the location of the naughty corner).

So weary of this constant policing of women's legitimate concerns and language.

An unshortened version of the acronym mentioned in talk guidelines. It's a no.

I didn’t say they weren’t attractive. Please don’t misrepresent what I said.

That’s to @Skral.

I said people may not be attracted to them. Not that they weren’t attractive, which is a different thing entirely.

Ok, so you can say it one way without being goady but an equally true and factual way of saying it another way is goady. Righty ho. Like Floral says, thems the rules. Got it.

I agree

@Sophoclesthefox @Ereshkigalangcleg OP said I’m in my 50s and female - born female. so she has said how she identifies.

You are not transphobic. You've just discovered that genuinely not being transphobic is rarely good enough for these people. That's why there's such a problem!

[quote Noodella18]**@Sophoclesthefox* @Ereshkigalangcleg OP said I’m in my 50s and female - born female.* so she has said how she identifies.[/quote]
Indeed. But I very carefully did not use the word cis, as is clear from my post, and yet that moniker was applied to me.

Definitely not transphobic OP. There is that facet that nothing except pandering, centering and capitulation will do. Ignore.

@Greenwateringcan I think the sum of what you said amounted to that though, at least in the way you phrased it in your OP. I have zero agenda around this topic, but I can totally see why it was seen as transphobic. Again, agree with you on the part about consent, it's the comments around who is attracted to whom and that people who were attracted to women would have an issue with the fact that they still had their male genitalia.

I’m in my 50s and female - born female. so she has said how she identifies.

No, she hasn't. I'm female. I'm not "cis", and if you call me that Im going to point out that I don't "identify" as anything, and I find the idea that I am a subset of my sex offensive. I am a woman in the only way it's possible to be one, as I am female. No identity label needed, just my sex. You can have your in-group labels. Don't try to impose them on others, please. "Cis" is often considered a goady term on MN as most women on FWR reject it.

@Greenwateringcan

I said people may not be attracted to them. Not that they weren’t attractive, which is a different thing entirely.

Fair enough. I don’t think you were being transphobic btw.

@Greenwateringcan Indeed. But I very carefully did not use the word cis, as is clear from my post, and yet that moniker was applied to me. ok fair enough, I apologise - I didn't realise it would cause offence. We're all learning!

@Ereshkigalangcleg I was using the same phraseology as you used previously! You said identity or identifies, I can't scroll back to see! But fine, as I said to OP, apologies if i used the wrong term there.

[quote Noodella18]@Ereshkigalangcleg I was using the same phraseology as you used previously! You said identity or identifies, I can't scroll back to see! But fine, as I said to OP, apologies if i used the wrong term there.[/quote]
My issue isn’t with me being female or identifying with being female or anything like that. It’s the use of the word cis. I don’t like it. It’s othering and reductive to the class of woman. I don’t need a classifier. Woman is enough.

And I guess I’m more GC than I thought. Because that has got right up my nose. Hey ho.

Of course you're not, how ridiculous. I'm a heterosexual woman and enjoy sex with some men, but I don't want to have sex with every single man! I'm sitting in a room with about 30 men in it right now and looking at them all there's maybe 2 I am sexually attracted to. Others are unattractive, to me, or I know them and they have obnoxious personalities that turn me off. One in particular is v good looking, but is a knob. Why would a trans woman, or any man or woman, expect, indeed demand, to be attractive to every other man or woman that meets their sexual preferences?

And I guess I’m more GC than I thought. Because that has got right up my nose. Hey ho.

This is where the TRAs never learn. Their demands make people look deeper into this issue and more often than not, they come to a similar conclusion to you OP.

This is what I said, noodella however I recognise you're not aware of how strongly people here feel about the language of gender identity ideology being imposed on us. No hard feelings.

Both female and woman are descriptions of sex. There is no such thing as "cis", it is a superfluous in-group label most people don't apply to themselves, and you're assuming it on the part of the OP who hasn't stated her personal identity.

@Greenwateringcan

I said people may not be attracted to them. Not that they weren’t attractive, which is a different thing entirely.

This is a crucial distinction. There are any number of people - male and female - that I find attractive. I am not attracted to them, though.

You have the right to refuse to have sex with anyone for any reason. That is all you need to say. Don't over-explain yourself to people who are clearly not prepared to listen and are just trying to paint you into a corner.

Of course you're not being transphobic. No one is entitled to have sex with anyone else without mutual consent and those people need to learn to understand that.