How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

[CuriousPanda]

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

but they do feel they have found one clear difference; a neuroanatomical signature area for transgenderism in brain regions to do with processing perceptions of self and body ownership. Which suggests a biological underpinning to sense of gender identity and distress at gender incongruence.

Yes, which suggests that gender dysphoria is simply a psychological condition, like others which have a biological underpinning. Rather than about sexed brains in the wrong sex bodies.

Research into the related condition of body identity integrity disorder seems to show that this condition might be neurological rather than psychological. The same may be true of gender dysphoria.

So the feeling that someone has that their legs don't belong to them and should be amputated is not dissimilar to someone believing that their sexual organs are 'wrong'.

But even if this is the case, it doesn't mean that someone really has the 'wrong' sexed brain for their body, it just means that there may be some physical reason in the brain for the person having this perception, rather than it being purely psychological.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

but they do feel they have found one clear difference; a neuroanatomical signature area for transgenderism in brain regions to do with processing perceptions of self and body ownership. Which suggests a biological underpinning to sense of gender identity and distress at gender incongruence.

Yes, which suggests that gender dysphoria is simply a psychological condition, like others which have a biological underpinning. Rather than about sexed brains in the wrong sex bodies.

So wouldn't this mean that the best treatment would be counselling, as for, say, people suffering from anorexia, rather than endorsement and surgery?

This is a very interesting article on exactly that nexus between body integrity disorder, and body dysmorphic disorder, from back when mainstream publications were actually able to discuss this in an evidence-based way:

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/

From the article:

“Not that I can see no difference between a middle-aged man rubbing Rogaine on his head every morning and a man whose discomfort in his own body is so all-consuming that he begins to think of suicide. But we shouldn't be surprised when any of these people, healthy or sick, use phrases like "becoming myself" and "I was incomplete" and "the way I really am" to describe what they feel, because the language of identity and selfhood surrounds us. It is built into our morality, our literature, our political philosophy, our therapeutic sensibility, even our popular culture. This is the way we talk now. This is the way we think. This is even the way we sell cars and tennis shoes. We talk of self-discovery, self-realization, self-expression, self-actualization, self-invention, self-knowledge, self-betrayal, and self-absorption. It should be no great revelation that the vocabulary of the self feels like a natural way to describe our longings, our obsessions, and our psychopathologies.”

@ScreamingMeMe

There is language set in stone, there's literally the terms "cis men" and "cis women".

It's not set in stone if a large number of people either don't know the term cis or don't agree with it's usage.

Well, a large group of people don't agree with misgendering trans people or with imposing the labels of "man" and "woman" on people against their will, so... You'll have to deal with that.

Ditto

[quote Blibbyblobby]@CuriousPanda

As a person who clearly cares about injustice, autonomy and the right to self-definition, answer me this.

There is a group of people without a name. A huge group, hidden in plain sight. You see them every day. You owe your life to one. You may even be one. You are so used to seeing them around you probably never stop to think about what their lives are like.

This group has suffered horrendous oppression across history and across the world: at various times and places, by law and by custom, even still today, this group has been denied bodily autonomy, denied the right to work, to own property, to vote, to hold positions of power, denied choice of sexual partners, denied contraception, denied education, denied their choice of who to associate with, denied leadership, denied religious freedom, treated as spoils of war, used as free labour, and so much more. To some, it is better to kill a child before it's born than have it be one of this group.

It used to have a name, but that was taken away and with it the laws, rights and protections the group has fought so hard for.

But while the name has gone, the group, its oppression, its lived reality and its common experiences still exist.

Doesn't this group deserve to be named, to have its own label to capture its lived reality, under which it can rally, name their oppression, share their experiences and fight for their autonomy?

Now that women is a mixed-sex group, what is the group noun for adult humans with female bodies, that single-sex group that used to be called women? Now that you have seen fit to give their original name in every language away?[/quote]
There's no such "invisible" group, no one is "erasing" cis women and we know who cis women are.

No one is erasing any names, no one is denying the oppression that cis women do experience. The problem is that you are insistent on ignoring the struggles of those who aren't cis.

Don't know a single cis person personally

You are erasing the group of women who are not cis

Which is probably most women

What are we?

And frankly, in Britain in particular, cis women aren't suffering much of this oppression.

denied bodily autonomy, denied the right to work, to own property, to vote, to hold positions of power, denied choice of sexual partners, denied contraception, denied education, denied their choice of who to associate with, denied leadership, denied religious freedom, treated as spoils of war, used as free labour, and so much more.

In Britain, cis women experience pretty much none of those. And in Britain, cis women are at the forefront of a campaign to restrict the bodily autonomy of others.

We are not oppressed for our gender

We are oppressed because people try to force gender onto us , just like you do every time you imply we are cis women

We are are oppressed for our sex

And the gender oppression is driven by our sex

So the root of our oppression is our sex

Which we do not share with transwomen

CuriousPanda perhaps those people need to mature a little and understand that labels are just labels and they aren't a big deal? Who is "imposing labels"? Are people waiting on the street to stick stickers saying "man" or "woman" on people? Are we making people wear t-shirts with gendered labels on?

Or maybe -- just maybe - is this obsession with "imposing labels" a complete hyperbole and hysterical exaggeration?

I get "labels imposed on me" all the time as a person in the social world, and why should I care? They are just labels. It's the mark of a grown-up ego to recognise that you don't need to be dependent on "labels" for your selfhood or self-esteem. It's an immature, teenage view of the world to be obsessed with "labels" and external "validation" of one's self. It's something that people should grow out of just around the time they grow out of being obsessed with wearing branded items.

In Britain women by sex, not gender, have rights that are being invaded and disregarded.

And frankly we are denied a lot of things in practise if not in law

How many heads of industry are women?
How many politicians ?
Which SEX makes up most slavery victims in the uk ?

And we only have those laws because we fought for them and we proved why they were needed

@Chickenyhead
Don't know a single cis person personally

@midgemagneto
You are erasing the group of women who are not cis
Which is probably most women
What are we?

I do not care for your disingenuous deflections.

If you were considered a certain gender/sex since birth ("man"/"boy", "woman"/"girl"), and still call yourself that now, you are cis.

"Reject" this all you want, it's irrelevant to me. The fact remains that you know precisely what I'm referring to, and that you're just being facetious.

@CuriousPanda

And frankly, in Britain in particular, cis women aren't suffering much of this oppression.

denied bodily autonomy, denied the right to work, to own property, to vote, to hold positions of power, denied choice of sexual partners, denied contraception, denied education, denied their choice of who to associate with, denied leadership, denied religious freedom, treated as spoils of war, used as free labour, and so much more.

In Britain, cis women experience pretty much none of those. And in Britain, cis women are at the forefront of a campaign to restrict the bodily autonomy of others.

What a load of old rubbish, tbh.

First, what rights of these do trans or non-binary people not have?

Second, who are you to "misgender" women as "cis"? Seems like you're imposing some "gendered labels" on other people, here. I for one am not "cis" and strongly object to you misgendering and labelling me in that way. What a hypocrite.

At home on school bubble isolation are we? Your standard of argument suggests as much.

I do not call myself woman if woman does not mean sex

I only agree to that because I was taught it means sex and nothing more

So what am I ?

There's no such "invisible" group, no one is "erasing" cis women and we know who cis women are.

Again, I see you're all for imposing "labels" on people when they're your favourite labels. This is getting very tedious now.

No, I, as a woman and UK citizen, DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT YOUR MISGENDERING

I am do not know what you mean by woman if it's not sex

@irresistibleoverwhelm
First, what rights of these do trans or non-binary people not have?

The right to be treated as equals, to be consistently treated as who they say they are, with the stigma, without the attacks.

The right that you consistently deny to them.

We have exactly the same rights.

Yet you get to declare my gender.

I think not

You are treated as equal
Equal to all others in your sex group
You don't want equal
You want something other men don't get

Who is imposing a binary here?

Why it's the op

Are you kidding, CuriousPanda? No-one has a "right" to "be treated as who they say they are". Yet you repeatedly don't treat women as who they say they are. It's rank hypocrisy, stupidity and childishness. And you absolutely know it.