How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

[CuriousPanda]

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

And of course you could have a natal woman whose brain structure and functioning tended to resemble what might be seen in more of the male population and who very happily and rightly never questioned her sex. Which I wouldn't be surprised if that was case for me, for eg.

All of which is completely irrelevant when you are considering the rights and services she will need because of her female sexed body.

(Unless this ‘male’ brain can control fertility etc. etc.)

People who talk about brain structures just don’t seem to be up to speed with the large number of people included under the trans umbrella.

[quote Ereshkigalangcleg]The present study searches to find neural correlates for the respective conditions, using fractional anisotropy (FA) as a measure of white matter connections that has consistently shown sex differences. We compared FA in 40 transgender men (female birth-assigned sex) and 27 transgender women (male birth-assigned sex), with both homosexual (29 male, 30 female) and heterosexual (40 male, 40 female) cisgender controls. Previously reported sex differences in FA were reproduced in cis-heterosexual groups, but were not found among the cis-homosexual groups. After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed sex-typical FA-values. The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception.

[[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8]][/quote]
I'll complete the abstract here as a couple of sentences were missing from the end of yours:

"After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed sex-typical FA-values. The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception. Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership, whereas homosexuality seems to be associated with less cerebral sexual differentiation.

And an extract from the discussion of this paper which is interesting:

"Importantly, the present data also provide a neuroanatomical underpinning for a GD/transgender-specific aspect - the body dysphoria and great distress due to incongruence between physical sex and experienced gender. The right-hemispheric differences between cis-homosexual and transgender groups, together with the confirmed aberration of FA in the (right) IFOF, provide compelling indications for the hypothesized different own body perception, specifically in transgender individuals. In line with our results, several previous neuroimaging studies found differences between trans- and cisgender groups particularly located in the right hemisphere16,17,22,27,29, more specifically in the right insula, (pre-) cuneus, temporo-parietal junction, orbito-frontal, medial frontal, and anterior cingulate cortex. These regions, and the right hemisphere in general have been reported to be involved in cognitive processes of (body) perception in relation to self, body ownership, ego-centric representation, and bodily self-consciousness "

So from what I can see here, these researchers have found little in the way of overall brain differences after they have controlled for sexual orientation, but they do feel they have found one clear difference; a neuroanatomical signature area for transgenderism in brain regions to do with processing perceptions of self and body ownership. Which suggests a biological underpinning to sense of gender identity and distress at gender incongruence.

A lot of the studies are so small, there's a lot of work to be done and getting large enough numbers to participate is likely to be a problem .

@MistressOfEvilMaleficent

This topic spurred me on to talk to some friends about this in our WhatsApp group.

Now we are from all different political leanings, races and sexuality, but we are all women.

Some were unaware of the "cis" lable, and immediately rejected it. She's a your left leaning, be kind type.

She decided her label would be "normal woman" and other have a choice of "abnormal woman" it's direct lingual opposite or you can have trans-woman .

We all roared with laughter. She's the type though that will demand it and it's she's ruthless. Oh to be a fly on the wall in that HR meeting 😂

And this is the difficulty isn't it?

If your 'be kind' friend is so happy to alienate, other, and shame vulnerable trans people by suggesting they should identify as 'abnormal women', how do you think the rest of the world who aren't of the 'be kind' attitude are treating them?

Glad you all had a good laugh though.

@Beowulfa

I got my first post deletion on this thread-is there a special initiation prize?

I will order myself an Adult Human Female t-shirt if not.

I’m on my second deletion with no information as to why - I’m ordering a job lot of Jess DeWahl’s Heretic patches.

Is it me or since we’ve been confined to the naughty step of Mumsnet, we’re getting deleted more often?

So from what I can see here, these researchers have found little in the way of overall brain differences after they have controlled for sexual orientation, but they do feel they have found one clear difference; a neuroanatomical signature area for transgenderism in brain regions to do with processing perceptions of self and body ownership. Which suggests a biological underpinning to sense of gender identity and distress at gender incongruence.

I've seen this before, the idea that gender dysphoria is a similar condition to body identity integrity disorder, and that the origins of both conditions may be neurological rather than psychological.

Where are you going with this argument? Do you believe that a person who wants to have their legs amputated has an 'amputee's brain'?

Is it me or since we’ve been confined to the naughty step of Mumsnet, we’re getting deleted more often?
I got my first strike for mentioning the acronym that dare not speak it's name. A Great Puzzlement for me seeing as the rules say it'd be looked at on a 'case by case' basis.

siggestionsplease1 because it is laughable.

And if your bog standard run of the mill general public person can grasp that trans-woman are not biological women and they have a already appropriate name why the need to decide they need more? And therefore access to more spaces, why can't they have their own?

Why do women need a extra tag to be what we are? We've been known as women for centuries. Transwomen have been known as transwomen for decades.

You can't just say I want that now. Give me it or I'm gonna call you names.

That's not how this works.

You can't just rock up to NASA and say I'm an astronaut and expect them to strap you in to the next space shuttle.

Outside of echo chambers the general public know what a woman is what a man is.

We can all be understanding we can all use the appropriate biological names for things, we can all just smile and nod, but we can't change sex and the general public have no appetite for changing a centuries old linguistics and meanings and neither do the broad general public have an appetite or need to pander to people's self gratification.

Call yourself a potato and identify as a carrot if you must, I'll smile and nod politely. But I'm not getting undressed or sharing a prison cell with a random penis. And neither will a lot of women.

@NecessaryScene

But we do have studies which show that trans identifying individuals often have brain structures and functioning that more closely resemble the structure and functioning of the sex they identify with, than their natal sex.

If that was true, what would it signify? What is the significance of these "brain structures"? What do you think they do? What's your point? Why should I care about your "brain structures" any more than your liver structures?

And I don't understand what you mean by "functioning". They clearly don't change behaviour, or you wouldn't see absolutely typical male/female sex dynamics in trans groups, and absolutely typical offending rates corresponding to sex. If there is this alleged "brain in an opposite sex body", it's utterly imperceptible to us outsiders.

Brain functioning refers to patterns of activations on neural networks and larger structures.

What I believe it would do is give more credibility to the experiences of trans people, people would be happier to say something along the lines of: 'Actually it's not entirely surprising that you identify as a boy despite being a natal girl, we can see from your brain that this is not unexpected and understandably this experience must cause you a huge amount of distress'.

There would be less deliberate ostracisation and hostility and better life outcomes.

Except suggestions we already know that that is a complete fantasy.

What I believe it would do is give more credibility to the experiences of trans people, people would be happier to say something along the lines of: 'Actually it's not entirely surprising that you identify as a boy despite being a natal girl, we can see from your brain that this is not unexpected and understandably this experience must cause you a huge amount of distress'.

But that goes against the current direction of travel because it gatekeeps the concept of being trans.

(And also doesn’t change the fact that women need sex based rights regardless of how they identify, and formalises the idea that some brains are ‘wrong’ for men or women).

a neuroanatomical signature area for transgenderism in brain regions to do with processing perceptions of self and body ownership. Which suggests a biological underpinning to sense of gender identity and distress at gender incongruence.

It equally suggests that this may be the effects of neuroplasticity.

I have no problem with the idea that there may be neurological differences in the brains of people who have problems with self-perception/body image (although there is a chicken and egg issue to resolve), but that has nothing to do with which reproductive category they are in (though it could have an impact on what reproductive category they wish they were in).

What I believe it would do is give more credibility to the experiences of trans people, people would be happier to say something along the lines of: 'Actually it's not entirely surprising that you identify as a boy despite being a natal girl, we can see from your brain that this is not unexpected and understandably this experience must cause you a huge amount of distress'.

How accurate are these results? Do gender clinics use these methods to diagnose gender dysphoria? Are the same results ever seen in people who don't identify as transgender? Is physical body modification always the best treatment for people who are diagnosed with this condition?

@OldCrone

So from what I can see here, these researchers have found little in the way of overall brain differences after they have controlled for sexual orientation, but they do feel they have found one clear difference; a neuroanatomical signature area for transgenderism in brain regions to do with processing perceptions of self and body ownership. Which suggests a biological underpinning to sense of gender identity and distress at gender incongruence.

I've seen this before, the idea that gender dysphoria is a similar condition to body identity integrity disorder, and that the origins of both conditions may be neurological rather than psychological.

Where are you going with this argument? Do you believe that a person who wants to have their legs amputated has an 'amputee's brain'?

I'm not going anywhere the argument; I've tried to give an accurate summary of the study @Ereshkigalangcleg posted about.

It's not quite in line with what I expected, which was to see a broader pattern of brain structure/ function similarities to the sex the trans person identified with rather than natal sex, as per the later study I referred to. They don't think they found that, but they do think they have found something and that's pretty interesting.

And that’s before you even face the fact that scientists have been investigating ‘sexed’ brains for a long time but haven’t found any conclusive evidence that there is such a thing as a pink or blue brain.

It all sounds reminiscent of girls being given hormones to restrict growth incase they have a male height.

@CuriousPanda "And this brings me back to the question in the OP. What is "gender critical" about strictly assigning these labels based on someone's genitals?"

In my understanding It's gender critical due to the fact that a female sexed person can present in whichever "gender" role she likes and still retain and have access to all her female sex based rights.
Rights afforded to the female sexed due to the oppression They face directly as a result of their female sexed body.
Genitals in relation to the oppression of female bodies is incredible important.

“they do feel they have found one clear difference; a neuroanatomical signature area for transgenderism in brain regions to do with processing perceptions of self and body ownership. Which suggests a biological underpinning to sense of gender identity and distress at gender incongruence.”

Oops, fat fingers. Wasn’t this the same part of the brain that showed similarities with people living with anorexia?

@NotDavidTennant

Even if "pink brains" and "blue brains" exist I don't see why they would override the rest of physiology.

If someone had XY chromosomes, a male reproductive anatomy that produces sperm and had been through a male puberty but was found to have a "pink brain" why would that make them a woman and not simply a man with a "feminine" brain (whatever "feminine" may mean here)? Why would "brain sex" override chromosomal sex or reproductive sex?

I guess it's that flawed idea that the mind/brain is in the body rather than of the body. That somehow it stands alone and disassociated from the physical body that grew and sustains it, rather than just one component of the incredibly complex and dense interplay of electrical and chemical messages that make up a person.

I am not a consciousness in a female body, I am the consciousness of a female body. The body is the determinant not the mind.

That is a good way of framing it and trying to understand the difference in approach - thanks Blibbyblobby

Off topic, but where is this idea that transpeople are this massively oppressed and vulnerable group on a societal level in the UK come from?

Are transpeople more likely to be stopped and searched by metropolitan police?

Are 3 transpeople a week murdered?

Have transpeople needed to flee homes in larger numbers during a pandemic due to risk of DV?

Have transpeople historically needed to fight for the right to vote, the right to own land, the right for protection of jobs whilst on maternity?

Are they at a disadvantage in pay brackets and earning potential?

I'm genuinely confused. I understand that some people can be unkind to them or worse, but the same as all of us really. But massively oppressed and vulnerable I'm not getting.

And what rights do they not have? Except to enter same sex spaces for safety of a historically vulnerable group., So it's not a lack of right, it's following rules to protect a recognized group of vulnerable people.

So whatever is going on in people heads
We have not been able to show that it makes a material difference to behaviours which are still dominated by sex

So as well as being ( being kind ) inconclusive, it's also irrelevant?

Well I would guess that trans people might suffer abuse snd discrimination , as fo other groups

But, as with other groups , the actions needed are unique to the group... we don't build wheelchair ramps to improve the lives of women , we don't provide sex separated changing facilities to improve the lives of gay and lesbian people

@TheSkatesOfCoachBombay

Off topic, but where is this idea that transpeople are this massively oppressed and vulnerable group on a societal level in the UK come from?

Are transpeople more likely to be stopped and searched by metropolitan police?

Are 3 transpeople a week murdered?

Have transpeople needed to flee homes in larger numbers during a pandemic due to risk of DV?

Have transpeople historically needed to fight for the right to vote, the right to own land, the right for protection of jobs whilst on maternity?

Are they at a disadvantage in pay brackets and earning potential?

I'm genuinely confused. I understand that some people can be unkind to them or worse, but the same as all of us really. But massively oppressed and vulnerable I'm not getting.

And what rights do they not have? Except to enter same sex spaces for safety of a historically vulnerable group., So it's not a lack of right, it's following rules to protect a recognized group of vulnerable people.

I think that there are particular vulnerabilities, for example high(er) rates of unemployment and homelessness, though it is difficult to unpick from other problems that they have and to know whether the transgenderism of itself is the issue or everything that goes with it (transition is a consuming journey), also the extent to which transgenderism/transitioning is sometimes a symptom rather than a cause. For your average late transitioning professional male the problems are likely to be far less than for others.