How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

[CuriousPanda]

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

but they do feel they have found one clear difference; a neuroanatomical signature area for transgenderism in brain regions to do with processing perceptions of self and body ownership. Which suggests a biological underpinning to sense of gender identity and distress at gender incongruence.

Yes, which suggests that gender dysphoria is simply a psychological condition, like others which have a biological underpinning. Rather than about sexed brains in the wrong sex bodies.

I'm genuinely confused. I understand that some people can be unkind to them or worse, but the same as all of us really. But massively oppressed and vulnerable I'm not getting.

I can see that in any situation where facilities are segregated by sex, they may feel that they are put at a disadvantage. The solution is additional unisex facilities.

It’s also true that people who are gender non conforming can face discrimination whether or not they identify as trans.

The GRA was written to protect the right to privacy.

However there also seems to be a new belief that everyone has a right to have their identity validated. This is very odd and is in direct conflict with pretty much every other human right.

There would be less deliberate ostracisation and hostility

There would be less hostility if this group were not irresponsibly encouraged to believe that they were the opposite sex, thet their feelings and rights trump everyone else's, and that women's don"t matter.

I guess it's that flawed idea that the mind/brain is in the body rather than of the body. That somehow it stands alone and disassociated from the physical body that grew and sustains it, rather than just one component of the incredibly complex and dense interplay of electrical and chemical messages that make up a person.

I am not a consciousness in a female body, I am the consciousness of a female body. The body is the determinant not the mind.

This. A disembodied consciousness is ideologically proposing a soul.

Off topic, but where is this idea that transpeople are this massively oppressed and vulnerable group on a societal level in the UK come from?

You're not the first to wonder. www.queermajority.com/currents/tdor-trans-death-and-trans-life

I'll complete the abstract here as a couple of sentences were missing from the end of yours:

"After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed sex-typical FA-values. The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception. Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership, whereas homosexuality seems to be associated with less cerebral sexual differentiation.

Yes I had already said this in one of my previous posts. That wasn't my point, so I cut the quote off there. It's highly complex language, I only provided the part that was relevant to the point I was making about sex, it wasn't "missing"

Hmmm food for thought definitely.

I definitely get they can be discriminated against, so not employed because the individual is trans. Homelessness is complex , and I am a expert in this so won't go too far in to the reasons for homelessness as I'd bore you all to death 😂

But oppressed? They definitely have a voice don't they, oppressed people don't generally in the space of 3 years change the word woman to Birthing People overnight if you see what I mean. Oppression is systematic , much like racial oppression, sex oppression. It's happened historically and still does in the system.

I can't seem to find a law historically that does not allow a transperson to sit next to a "cis" person on a bus, or a historical systematic injustice of second class citizen because of birth sex.

They can be abused by an individual definitely, they can be discriminated by individuals definitely. But "systematically oppressed" I just don't get that one. I also don't think many are at a increased risk of vulnerability.

Are they statistically raped or beaten more than women for example here in the UK?

I understand they may be uncomfortable in a opposite setting to as they identify as, but yes surely a 3rd unisex space is the answer?

Then everyone's dignity is respected, no?

It’s absolutely ridiculous that my last post was deleted. I have said nothing offensive, used no names or slurs, simply noted the fact that the vast majority of middle aged white transitioners in this country (including people like Pip Bunce), are not in the same bracket as the statistics for largely black prostituted trans women in Brazil, which skews both the global statistics on trans murders and the general perception of trans women as being an oppressed group. This has been pointed out many times on MN and it is factual information. Compare the U.K. statistics on trans murders and the global ones.

Come on MN, this is scandalous. There was literally nothing offensive about my post. How can anyone claim that white wealthy celebrities and professionals in the U.K. like Pip Bunce, India Willoughby, Eddie Izzard and so on have faced the same kind of discrimination as young black sex workers in other countries? It’s absolutely ridiculous to be censoring this observation, it’s simply fact.

What I believe it would do is give more credibility to the experiences of trans people, people would be happier to say something along the lines of: 'Actually it's not entirely surprising that you identify as a boy despite being a natal girl, we can see from your brain that this is not unexpected and understandably this experience must cause you a huge amount of distress'.

It's well known that waiting lists at gender identity clinics are very long. Perhaps we could speed up treatment by making brain scans an integral part of the diagnosis process? Say, at the initial appointment, as a sort of triage?

People without this small feature would then be directed down alternative therapeutic pathways, freeing up clinics to focus on the patients with it.

Would you support that?

@irresistibleoverwhelm

It’s absolutely ridiculous that my last post was deleted. I have said nothing offensive, used no names or slurs, simply noted the fact that the vast majority of middle aged white transitioners in this country (including people like Pip Bunce), are not in the same bracket as the statistics for largely black prostituted trans women in Brazil, which skews both the global statistics on trans murders and the general perception of trans women as being an oppressed group. This has been pointed out many times on MN and it is factual information. Compare the U.K. statistics on trans murders and the global ones.

Agreed. I was very surprised. Did you ask?

@irresistibleoverwhelm

Come on MN, this is scandalous. There was literally nothing offensive about my post. How can anyone claim that white wealthy celebrities and professionals in the U.K. like Pip Bunce, India Willoughby, Eddie Izzard and so on have faced the same kind of discrimination as young black sex workers in other countries? It’s absolutely ridiculous to be censoring this observation, it’s simply fact.

I suspect it's all to do with facts, truth and reality being too hard to stomach for some and as said facts, truth and reality undermine and destroy their argument said facts, truth and reality must be hidden, no-one else must be allowed to see them. Reminds me of something which I can't quite put my finger on....

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

What I believe it would do is give more credibility to the experiences of trans people, people would be happier to say something along the lines of: 'Actually it's not entirely surprising that you identify as a boy despite being a natal girl, we can see from your brain that this is not unexpected and understandably this experience must cause you a huge amount of distress'.

It's well known that waiting lists at gender identity clinics are very long. Perhaps we could speed up treatment by making brain scans an integral part of the diagnosis process? Say, at the initial appointment, as a sort of triage?

People without this small feature would then be directed down alternative therapeutic pathways, freeing up clinics to focus on the patients with it.

Would you support that?

I don't think the brain scans are strong enough presently, or maybe ever, to be incorporated into any diagnostic approach or to give any idea about the best course for an individual. I feel where they have potential importance is in demonstration to society at large that there could be a biological underpinning to the sense of being in a body of the wrong sex, and that this could lead to greater understanding and less hostility in general.

There is more than one dimension to this obviously - scans could demonstrate either functional & structural similarities to the identified-with sex, or they could maybe demonstrate different functioning in a region to do with body perception in relation to self, but it's possible that others may have the same patterns too and yet not experience the same degree of distress and live quite happily.

So I think distress subjectively experienced by an individual must be a core feature of treatment approach. I have real difficulties with surgery as an approach but I am sure there are some instances where the distress is so severe and the risk of to life is judged to be so great that surgery is the best decision to take at the time.

I think you'll probably find that the posts being deleted are not being reported by those that have difficulties with or are on the other side of any arguments, but by other GC feminists who are wary of screenshots being taken...

Do you have any grounds for that assertion? It's not my experience of women on FWR.

And why would anyone fear screenshots of posts like irreversibleoverwhelm's?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Do you have any grounds for that assertion? It's not my experience of women on FWR.

Quite

Lol. Yeah, someone screenshotted a comment of mine pointing out the racism and homophobia of the TRA arguments.

I stand by every word, as I'm quite sure every feminist would. But then, we're not the ones pushing for entrenched sexism and homophobia because of some daft flat earth 'brains can be sexed but genitals can't' bullshit.

Not buying it, suggestionsplease. Pity, you seemed half reasonable for a while there.

suggestionsplease

Such an approach seems lacking in integrity. If the data is not of enough clinical significance to justify using this feature as a means of diagnosis, then it is not of enough clinical significance to promulgate to wider society as a cause of sex or gender dysphoria. There is enough misinformation out there.

Especially when you advocate that we continue to diagnose the condition based on the patient's symptoms. This would make it Schrödinger's brain feature. Simultaneously important enough to classify sex or gender dysphoria as innate conditions that means transitional surgeries are the only option, but not important enough for its presence to be used for diagnosis purposes.

Absolutely spot on Purgatory.

It's not quite in line with what I expected, which was to see a broader pattern of brain structure/ function similarities to the sex the trans person identified with rather than natal sex, as per the later study I referred to. They don't think they found that, but they do think they have found something and that's pretty interesting.

What do you mean by a "pattern of brain structure/ function similarities to the sex the trans person identified with rather than natal sex"? My understanding is that it is impossible to tell whether a brain is that of a female or a male because there is so much overlap in their attributes. This would mean that many non trans people would also have a brain which is more similar to one of the opposite sex. Which makes the whole thing meaningless really, since if many men have brains which are more like women's brains than men's, then surely that means that there is no such thing as a male brain or a female brain.

If there were brain similarities then we might expect there to be cognitive similarity that could be measured

Any hints what cognitive features women snd trans women share ?

@midgemagneto

If there were brain similarities then we might expect there to be cognitive similarity that could be measured

Any hints what cognitive features women snd trans women share ?

I know! I know!

None.