How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

[CuriousPanda]

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

No, that the current evidence suggests that sex is not binary and simple categorisation will not suffice for all individuals. Future evidence is likely to complicate the picture further.

And in the (very, very, very long) meantime we have to roll over and accept the Laurel Hubbards and Barbie Kardashians into female sports and prisons? It’s a hard no from me

Munroe Bergdorf tried this at a clinic in Europe in the C4 programme a couple of years ago "What makes a woman".

It didn't find anything conclusive obviously.

The actual research by sexologists about dysphoria is rejected outright but this "what if" theory is presented as a concrete analysis. Your psychology is your "brain", there's an explanation already but because it's an uncomfortable reality we are expected to be convinced by these what if something grey got bigger and something we don't know is the reason instead.

It's mostly distraction.

@Rocket1982

Most of these GCF arguments seem to rest on the assumption that biological sex is objectively determined, binary and immutable. It isn't. If there is enough of a grey area about biological sex owing to individual differences in sex chromosomes, the presence or absence of the SRY gene, the presence or absence of genes for hormones and hormone receptors that are normally triggered by SRY etc., then it is reasonable to suppose that there is an even larger biological grey area that we don't know much about (because it's even more complicated), which may (and probably does) have significant impact on brain function that leads to differences in characteristics correlated with lower-level determinants of sexual characteristics. If enough of a biological evidence base builds to support this conjecture, and we realise that there is a much larger grey area in 'biological sex' than the significant grey area currently appreciated, would GCFs modify their position?

But sex is to do with reproductive category, not secondary sexual characteristics. It is whether you are the type of human that has the reproductive system for the production of large immobile gametes or the reproductive system for the production of small mobile gametes. There are secondary sexual characteristics that generally follow from reproductive category. However, occasionally someone from one reproductive category has secondary sexual characteristics that belong with the other category, eg a man might grow breasts or a woman a full beard. This does not change their sex. Rather, having a secondary sexual characteristic of the opposite sex would be indicative of a possible medical condition that may have a detrimental impact on health.

If we were to say that brain function has secondary sexual characteristics then that is all they are, secondary sexual characteristics. It makes not a jot of difference to what sex they are as sex is concerned with reproductive function. Nothing else. We would expect having the "wrong" brain to be indicative of other possible health problems.

The prevailing view is that the brain does not display secondary sexual characteristics, just that some brain characteristics - and here are we talking about the physical brain, brain function or the mind? - are more common in one sex than the other (it is much more like height, than beards). Having a brain more typical of the opposite sex does not raise health concerns, because it is not sexed. It is just your brain.

I'll through in Sophie Scott's excellent video on brain sex here:

vimeo.com/414833798

There is of course an argument that gender dysphoria (which can be a serious mental health condition) is itself a health concern, which is true, but it is nothing to do with brain sex. That someone's gender dysphoria might arise because their brain (again, whatever that means) is more commonly found in someone of the opposite sex, does not show that brains are sexed. It shows that they are distressed by being the sex they are in our society, because of their understanding of how they feel they should feel or "be" because of their sex. In a heavily gendered society, family or community, gender dysphoria is a completely rational response. There is no need to try and explain it through ideas of "sexed brains".

@AssassinatedBeauty

I am arguing that there could be a very high correlation between biological brain differences and sex chromosomes in the same way there is a very high correlation between sex chromosomes and secondary sexual characteristics.

This is science fiction. There is currently no evidence for this, and I can't see any reason why there ever would be. Why are we wasting time discussing a hypothetical thought experiment as if it is relevant to women's rights today? Nevermind that it has been explained several times already that it is a red herring.

But we do have studies which show that trans identifying individuals often have brain structures and functioning that more closely resemble the structure and functioning of the sex they identify with, than their natal sex. And that this appears to be present from quite a young age.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

Again, it's not as absolute as saying male brain and female brain, but if there were maybe 100,000 markers that showed trends, on average in certain ways between the sexes. And of course you could have a natal woman whose brain structure and functioning tended to resemble what might be seen in more of the male population and who very happily and rightly never questioned her sex. Which I wouldn't be surprised if that was case for me, for eg.

Good points, PaleBlueMoonlight.

@NotDavidTennant

Even if "pink brains" and "blue brains" exist I don't see why they would override the rest of physiology.

If someone had XY chromosomes, a male reproductive anatomy that produces sperm and had been through a male puberty but was found to have a "pink brain" why would that make them a woman and not simply a man with a "feminine" brain (whatever "feminine" may mean here)? Why would "brain sex" override chromosomal sex or reproductive sex?

Indeed.

Imahinif brain transplants were a thing.

Now, imagine if a man suffered a fatal brain injury but his body was fine, and a woman suffered paralysis as a result of an accident and her brain was transplanted into the man's body.

Now, that woman really would have a "woman's brain". She'd have grown up experiencing all the things women and girls experience, how they are treated by society, and the shitty gender rules imposed on her, etc.

But now, she's in a man's body. But her identity remains female.

She goes for a run, like she used to do, but she's now 15% faster. Men don't harass her in the street anymore. Women cross the road if they're walking near her at night by themselves. She starts having relationships and gets a woman pregnant. But she really thinks she's female.

Except, she's not. Because her sex, the reproductive function of her body, is male. She's a man now, regardless of how she feels about that.

Imagine if**

Is that the study that said that the brains of people who had experienced trauma developed similar patterns ?

And trauma is more likely experienced by women and people who have had surgery?

And the authors had to issue an update to their paper to make it absolutely clear that they were not saying that transgender woman brains were more like women's brains than men's

but that men who had trauma and women who had trauma showed similar responses in the brain

We've discussed these brain studies many times before. There are several limitations.

They are very small samples.They don't account for plasticity of the brain which can occur throughout life and from an early age. They don't account for the effects of any cross sex hormones. Generally these studies don't control for sexual orientation, and the studies which have find this minor brain structure similarity disappears with the heterosexual MTF trans people, who are not similar to the control female people in the same way, and in fact have no special correlation with the control females but a difference from both control sex groups in an area of the brain relating to self perception of the body, suggesting that there is something different going on.

of course you could have a natal woman whose brain structure and functioning tended to resemble what might be seen in more of the male population

They do, because there is no "male brain".

But we do have studies which show that trans identifying individuals often have brain structures and functioning that more closely resemble the structure and functioning of the sex they identify with, than their natal sex.

Do we? You've posted a link to a news site with a report on a conference paper from 3 years ago, which we discussed here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3256462-MRI-scan-can-show-if-you-are-transgender-Apparently

Link to press release with abstract of this paper.
www.ese-hormones.org/media/1506/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf

Even the abstract says that these results are inconclusive:
These results on brain structure are thus partially in line with a sex-atypical differentiation of the brain during early development in individuals with GD, but might also suggest that other mechanisms are involved.

The present study searches to find neural correlates for the respective conditions, using fractional anisotropy (FA) as a measure of white matter connections that has consistently shown sex differences. We compared FA in 40 transgender men (female birth-assigned sex) and 27 transgender women (male birth-assigned sex), with both homosexual (29 male, 30 female) and heterosexual (40 male, 40 female) cisgender controls. Previously reported sex differences in FA were reproduced in cis-heterosexual groups, but were not found among the cis-homosexual groups. After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed sex-typical FA-values. The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8

I got my first post deletion on this thread-is there a special initiation prize?

I will order myself an Adult Human Female t-shirt if not.

There are something like 6500 differences between male and female bodies.

Imagine a scale of 1-10.

At 1 is 'Male', at 10 is 'Female'.

A brain is 'male' simply because it is integrated into a male body. A brain is 'female' simply because it is integrated into a female body. Likewise any other major organ. There is no biological mechanism by which brains can swap sex.

Even if, as is asserted, 'trans people's brains align more with their current gender than their sex', (and to my knowledge there have been no studies done which have included the impact of the confounding factors of both cross sex hormones and same sex attraction on 'trans brains') the most that assertion would do would be to put a trans male brain at around the 1.9 mark and a trans female brain closest to 9.999 on the scale.

So potentially more similar than most of their same sex counterparts (although we have no way of knowing if some non trans people have similar brains just don't express a trans identity) but still poles apart.

'Sex change' can only ever be a metaphorical or metaphysical concept.

"the most that assertion would do would be to put a trans male brain at around the 1.9 mark and a trans female brain closest to 9.999 on the scale."

Where do those numbers come from?

It's a metaphor not a statistical analysis, @Rocket1982

Right, so MRIs couldn't locate the source of my son's cerebral palsy but apparently can sort you nearly into glitter or gunge groupings.

I mean if it really were true (which many posters have debunked anyway) what use is it to anyone? MRIs are expensive and research using them should be for life changing disabilities like cerebral palsy and autism, not to 'prove' girly brains exist. What a waste of money and resources.
But absolutely reflects the me me me attitude of those who champion it.

Brains can have a sex but sex organs can't.
Right-o.

Suppose girl brains exist

Suppose I don't have one
I really struggle to see why my brain / personality/soul is different to that of men after all

I don't want to be put in the little boys room because my body is clearly female and large amounts of abuse are on account of my body , not my brain

I have a male spleen in a woman's body. The kidneys are non binary. I believe my bladder is full of genderfluid.

@AssassinatedBeauty

It's a metaphor not a statistical analysis, *@Rocket1982*

Exactly.

As I said:

"Imagine a scale of 1-10.

At 1 is 'Male', at 10 is 'Female'.

6500 differences between them...

You can't change sex.

So if you are male, the most you can do is shift to the furthest extreme of 1 eg 1.9

Doesn't make you female. Doesn't make you a woman.

"Imo, acceptance for trans people would be much easier to achieve if we were just asked to accept them as trans people."

It would also be much better for their own mental health, because then they would be a large step closer to accepting that they will never truly have the sex they desire. The constant denial of this means that whenever it does come up, they cannot handle it.

This topic spurred me on to talk to some friends about this in our WhatsApp group.

Now we are from all different political leanings, races and sexuality, but we are all women.

Some were unaware of the "cis" lable, and immediately rejected it. She's a your left leaning, be kind type.

She decided her label would be "normal woman" and other have a choice of "abnormal woman" it's direct lingual opposite or you can have trans-woman .

We all roared with laughter. She's the type though that will demand it and it's she's ruthless. Oh to be a fly on the wall in that HR meeting 😂

[quote Blibbyblobby]@CuriousPanda

As a person who clearly cares about injustice, autonomy and the right to self-definition, answer me this.

There is a group of people without a name. A huge group, hidden in plain sight. You see them every day. You owe your life to one. You may even be one. You are so used to seeing them around you probably never stop to think about what their lives are like.

This group has suffered horrendous oppression across history and across the world: at various times and places, by law and by custom, even still today, this group has been denied bodily autonomy, denied the right to work, to own property, to vote, to hold positions of power, denied choice of sexual partners, denied contraception, denied education, denied their choice of who to associate with, denied leadership, denied religious freedom, treated as spoils of war, used as free labour, and so much more. To some, it is better to kill a child before it's born than have it be one of this group.

It used to have a name, but that was taken away and with it the laws, rights and protections the group has fought so hard for.

But while the name has gone, the group, its oppression, its lived reality and its common experiences still exist.

Doesn't this group deserve to be named, to have its own label to capture its lived reality, under which it can rally, name their oppression, share their experiences and fight for their autonomy?

Now that women is a mixed-sex group, what is the group noun for adult humans with female bodies, that single-sex group that used to be called women? Now that you have seen fit to give their original name in every language away?[/quote]
Hi OP - just quoting this post in case you missed it. I'm sure there are others who would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

But we do have studies which show that trans identifying individuals often have brain structures and functioning that more closely resemble the structure and functioning of the sex they identify with, than their natal sex.

If that was true, what would it signify? What is the significance of these "brain structures"? What do you think they do? What's your point? Why should I care about your "brain structures" any more than your liver structures?

And I don't understand what you mean by "functioning". They clearly don't change behaviour, or you wouldn't see absolutely typical male/female sex dynamics in trans groups, and absolutely typical offending rates corresponding to sex. If there is this alleged "brain in an opposite sex body", it's utterly imperceptible to us outsiders.