Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

[dyslek]

I can see three scenarios.

1. women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
2. the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
3. due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.

As I said in the previous post, no. I think they're lazy, blinkered and foolish.

Seconded.

Do you honestly think that their end goal is treating women and children as "sub-human resources"?

They may not realise it, but as soon as they say a trans woman's need for the emotional safety they get from competing, changing or whatever as "just one of the girls" takes precedence over what the female people whose participation is necessary to make that happen may want, they are indeed making female people into resources for the benefit of male.

Indeed.

Do you honestly think that their end goal is treating women and children as "sub-human resources"?

It may not be the intention. Women and children need them to realise it is the outcome. Not meaning harm isn't the same as not doing harm.

Moaning at people for pointing out the downsides of how it affects them and suggesting that its mean of them to do so doesn't do much to solve the problem either. Listening, and then thinking of solutions that work for everyone is the only way forward out of this mess. It is going to have to involve accepting that some female people cannot put aside their sex based needs, that not everyone will be prepared to abandon their sex based thinking for gender based belief, and there does have to be a recognised difference in need and provisions that caters for TW and for natal females, and for those two different beliefs to live peacefully alongside each other.

@Redapplewreath

The impact on women is real. If you care about inclusion, why aren't you interested in trying to aim for a future that works for everyone instead of trying to make those women shut up and hide their difficulties with male people being given total freedom that harms female people? Why is the utopia one where women just get under the bus and pretend they like being there?

This doesn't work for all women. That isn't going to go away. Until that is faced and compromises found, this problem will not end. I'd personally like a future where it did.* [my emphasis]

---

Nothing ... nothing would make me happier than a world in which genuine Compromise was sought. Unfortunately, some people approach these issues as being a 'Zero Sum Game' They look only for a win / lose outcome ... which is sad because a win/win outcome is possible.

As for the whole Transsexual Rights argument ... nope, we have the rights we need ... and if we are minded too ( I am) we can live a quiet & happy life.

Perhaps, the next time a TRA says something outlandish GC women might seek to discover if that particular TRA is indeed a Transsexual (they wont be ... they almost never are) and then treat their outpourings of wisdom with the contempt that they deserve and leave Transseexual Women out of the argument altogether.

jus' thinkin aloud ...

@Ereshkigalangcleg

As I said in the previous post, no. I think they're lazy, blinkered and foolish.

Seconded.

And unaware of their own unconscious prejudices against women.

hyperbolic to think that trans women competing in sport will lead to women and children being treated as a sub-human resource

Unpack that a bit.

In every situation where TW wish to have full access to a female only space, it is framed as a situation in which TW have the power to insist and female people's consent is not relevant. In fact you can find many threads here where female people pointing out that they don't consent and the issues for some females are severe to the point of excluding them have received answers that range from 'you can't stop me' to 'I hear you, I'm sorry you don't like it but I'm going to do it anyway'.

The power differential is blatant. It isn't the space that is wanted, the female people in it are essential too. The female people aren't seen as equals. The female people aren't to have a say in this, and are constantly scolded (and threatened with sexual violence and murder on social media) for arguing back.

Yes, there's no getting around the aspect here that female people are seen as less human, a lower caste group. And that to insist on using female single sex spaces regardless of consent or care for impact is making use of female people for personal benefit. It doesn't sound nice, it isn't very nice, but it's the elephant that has to be addressed. Again, not meaning harm isn't the same as not doing harm.

I always wonder how anyone can convince themselvs that pretending you dont understand pages and pages of thoughtfull, well reasoned and logical arguments backed up with facts and figures is a winning stance to take? Its a bit of a mystery really.

@dyslek

I can see three scenarios. 1) women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment. 2) the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place). 3) due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.

I imagine it will be learning from history and what happened with lesbian and gay people during the 80s.

That historical hatred and bigotry against a minority was replaced by understanding and equality. And the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes, and hopefully the patriarchy and glass ceilings will finally be smashed as well.

The future looks bright.

Lesbian and gay people did not want to remove rights from other people. They just want(ed) to be treated equally.

Transgender people have rights. They want additional rights and in doing so are removing sex based rights from women.

It is nothing like the fight for gay and lesbian rights and it is truly offensive to make that comparison.

The world is waking up, finally. The future does indeed look bright.

@MidsomerMurmurs

Actually no, that was too subtle.

Resting gender ideology is nothing like being pro Section 28 in the 80s and 90s. Gender ideology can involve transing away the gay. We know this from whistleblowers from the Tavistock. We know this from looking at Iran. Gender ideology is regressive, misogynistic and homophobic.

Exactly. Trans activists trying to draw parallels with section 28 is ridiculous. The trans movement is denial of reality. I’ve not heard from anyone why accepting men as women is any different to accepting Rachel Dolezal as Black or Oli London as Korean. Accepting men as women is pretty much the definition of misogyny as far as I can see.

I imagine it will be learning from history and what happened with lesbian and gay people during the 80s.

But - the Transgenderist movement wants to dismantle Gay Rights.

Just to be quite clear.

@Marmaladee

4 please. End all this transphobia. Luckily it's mostly old people who read the daily Mail and like Piers Morgan so they'll die out

A teacher friend works in a really deprived school and her kids are all gender critical and have no time for it.

Most teenage girls I speak to think it's kind of crazy but they don't speak up because of the backlash on them so they just keep quiet.

Then there is the case of the law student who hopefully now has a good law career ahead of her who got investigated for saying women have vaginas.

Basically it's not just old people who don't believe in gender ideology - the vast majority of people young and old don't believe that trans women are actually women.

Hopefully here in the UK the voice of reason will win out - it will be interesting to see what happens in the States...

I imagine it will be learning from history and what happened with lesbian and gay people during the 80s.

That historical hatred and bigotry against a minority was replaced by understanding and equality. And the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes, and hopefully the patriarchy and glass ceilings will finally be smashed as well.

The future looks bright.

Yes, if by working through the current mess we get to the progressive understanding that thrse concepts of "cis", "trans" and "non-binary" are nothing more than the same old gender stereotypes with new marketing, and we realise that real inclusion and acceptance comes not from moving between gender boxes but from throwing the boxes away, that will be true progress.

But sex is still relevant and will remain so as long as female people suffer social, political and economic lack of power relative to males. Ditching these stereotypical gender constructions will help that but not solve it.

[quote CuriousPanda]**@NonnyMouse1337
Given the existence of detransitioners, that's highly unlikely.
"Given the existence of ex-gays, mainstream acceptance of homosexuality seems unlikely"
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-gay_movement

@dyslek
What is 'trans acceptance' Blue? what rights do trans people not have?
The ability to live as equals with their cis counterparts, which is the very thing you oppose. This is like asking "what rights don't gay people have?" back when gay people could only form civil unions.[/quote]
Being gay isn't a choice. There's a big difference between someone's sexuality and them being trans.

Trans people in the UK already live as equals. However, there's nothing equal about riding roughshod over the rights of women and medicalising children.

You have all the rights you need under the law.

I'll ask the same question that several PPs have already asked. Which actual rights do you not already have?

@Waitwhat23

Lesbian and gay people did not want to remove rights from other people. They just want(ed) to be treated equally.

Transgender people have rights. They want additional rights and in doing so are removing sex based rights from women.

It is nothing like the fight for gay and lesbian rights and it is truly offensive to make that comparison.

The world is waking up, finally. The future does indeed look bright.

Yes. Anyone who thinks the trans movement is the same as the gay rights movement, hasn't actually thought properly about it. If they engaged with the reality for a nanosecond they would realise they are not comparable.

Saying things like "people want to ban trans people from playing sports" and using phrases like "trans healthcare" obfuscate the truth. Completely disingenuous.

That historical hatred and bigotry against a minority was replaced by understanding and equality. And the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes, and hopefully the patriarchy and glass ceilings will finally be smashed as well.

Not when women of all ages are held in as much contempt by young "progressives" as much as older misogynists, they won't be.

A teacher friend works in a really deprived school and her kids are all gender critical and have no time for it.

Most teenage girls I speak to think it's kind of crazy but they don't speak up because of the backlash on them so they just keep quiet.

Yes, I think most just quietly roll their eyes.

The "Comfort Women" keep coming into my mind... These were (for those who are not familiar with the phrase!!) the unfortunate women forced into sexual slavery by the Japanese army in WW2. These poor women were forced to become slave-like prostitutes. The soldiers were even given tickets, for their turn. All completely ghastly.

So - I can now see US as the Comfort women. Being forced to accept men in all areas of our lives, to validate THEIR feelingses.

I see this as the future, unless we get more men on our side (as we wimmin are just getting ignored).

Step up men, Glinner can't take on the world by himself.

@PandorasMailbox

Being trans isn't a choice.

There are also huge numbers of trans people who would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to fight for single sex spaces etc but a lot of feminists seem to view all trans people as an enemy.
Its sad and its a vicious circle

@PurpleHoodie

I imagine it will be learning from history and what happened with lesbian and gay people during the 80s.

But - the Transgenderist movement wants to dismantle Gay Rights.

Just to be quite clear.

Exactly. Many of the people at the forefront of the gay rights movement are horrified at what is happening to the gay and lesbian community through this ideology. Lesbians are having to meet in secret again at meetings which are only shared by word of mouth because of the abuse they are facing from men wanting to break the cotton ceiling. The trans movement is regressive and has put back gay and lesbian rights by years. They are facing homophobia which hasn't been seen in years.

I hope we look back once gay and lesbians are accepted again for being same sex attracted and that the idea that gender could ever be conflated with sex will be laughed about in a 'how were we so crazy to believe that - it must have been covid brain' kind of thing. Trans people will be accepted for being trans gendered and we can all live happily ever after...

[quote Imasoulman]@PandorasMailbox

Being trans isn't a choice.

There are also huge numbers of trans people who would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to fight for single sex spaces etc but a lot of feminists seem to view all trans people as an enemy.
Its sad and its a vicious circle[/quote]

These trans people who would fight for single sex spaces need to start speaking the fuck up.

There are a few who come to talk on The Mess We're In podcast and I commend them. There aren't enough of them around.

Stonewall were at the forefront of fighting for gay rights, now they are at the forefront of the " trans movement " as you call it.

Stonewall are divisive, they don't really care about trans rights they just need a revenue stream. After winning the gay fight they found themselves largely redundant and so jumped on the trans bandwagon as a way to secure income

As long as we all keep fighting Stonewall will keep stirring the pot.

@MishyJDI
That historical hatred and bigotry against a minority was replaced by understanding and equality. And the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes, and hopefully the patriarchy and glass ceilings will finally be smashed as well

The future looks bright

I’m trying to follow what you’re saying here. Historical bigotry was replaced by understanding and equality, yes. See eg the introduction of same-sex marriage. That legal change was in 2014. Sure, there’s still homophobia out there in society, but things like changing the law on marriage sends a pretty strong signal that our society is moving away from institutional homophobia. Great!

the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes
Right, this has definitely happened. I’m assuming you’re referring to largely US imported ideas about gender ideology? That ideology is entirely predicated on regressive stereotypes. You know; the resource with GI Joe and Barbie. The lie that if you don’t conform to regressive stereotypes of feminine behaviour, you’re actually male (and need to have a double mastectomy). It’s clearly harmful both to individuals and to society.

But you haven’t said what happens next? We need a subsequent generation to see the regressive, conservative reality of gender ideology for what it is, and stand up for everyone’s right to dress how they like, without gaslighting young people into self-harm through hormones and surgery? So teenagers don’t render themselves infertile and put themselves on a lifelong medical pathway?

I think I’ve misjudged you based on your repeated posts up to now. Apparently we seem to agree after all.