Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

[dyslek]

I can see three scenarios.

1. women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
2. the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
3. due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.

Being gay isn't a choice. There's a big difference between someone's sexuality and them being trans.

Being gay isn't a choice, but being trans is?
That's what you seem to be saying and surely that's ridiculous - people who are trans won't choose to be trans just like someone who is gay or lesbian won't either!
You just are.
Just like I'm not and know I'm not.

Genuine trans people should resisting self ID as much as women are.

Totally agree with this. If self ID comes in, it will be used by predatory males to gain access to victims, and that is going to do the genuine trans community no favours whatsoever.

There are also huge numbers of trans people who would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to fight for single sex spaces etc but a lot of feminists seem to view all trans people as an enemy.

I've seen the issues repeatedly and patiently explained to you every time you raise this point on many threads.

I do apologise for the poor experience of female socialisation you are still receiving on this matter from female people who insist on caring about and focusing on the needs and issues of female people instead of responsibly putting themselves aside to manage the bigger picture and other people's obviously important needs and feelings.

Always interesting though that it's only ever female people expected to step up in this way. Or to put others before themselves. Or to accept being spoken to like naughty children without losing their tempers and being rude in reply.

[quote Imasoulman]@PandorasMailbox

Being trans isn't a choice.

There are also huge numbers of trans people who would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to fight for single sex spaces etc but a lot of feminists seem to view all trans people as an enemy.
Its sad and its a vicious circle[/quote]
Why don't you ask yourself why that is. Many of us were allies until all the threats and abuse started.

Where are all these trans people who want to stand shoulder to shoulder with us? Why aren't they calling out the abuse, why aren't they protesting against men in women's sports, why aren't they speaking up for women in Scotland, New Zealand, Canada and America?

Women are waking up to the reality of what the phrase 'trans rights' really means for us, our families and especially our children. I'm sorry that innocent trans people might suffer, but there's much more at stake here and we refuse to be threatened and made to feel guilty for standing up for our rights.

Women have fought long and hard for every inch of ground and we'll be damned if we'll give it up for the feelings of a few men.

Sorry, but there it is.

Always interesting though that it's only ever female people expected to step up in this way. Or to put others before themselves. Or to accept being spoken to like naughty children without losing their tempers and being rude in reply.

Isn't it.

Perhaps, the next time a TRA says something outlandish GC women might seek to discover if that particular TRA is indeed a Transsexual (they wont be ... they almost never are) and then treat their outpourings of wisdom with the contempt that they deserve and leave Transseexual Women out of the argument altogether

Ive seen many many posts referring to TRA and caveating with ‘not transpeople’

Being gay isn't a choice, but being trans is?
That's what you seem to be saying and surely that's ridiculous - people who are trans won't choose to be trans just like someone who is gay or lesbian won't either!

If trans is "I say I'm actually the opposite sex" and that is simply what it means, then yes, it can be a choice. Is that not what you believe?

Because gay isn't a choice you find the same proportion of gay people in every culture

The same does not seem to be true if trans suggesting something else at play

@Marmaladee yes I'm old. I went on take back the night marches in the 70s. But I loathe the Daily Fail and Piers Morgan. Am I the wrong sort of terf?

That historical hatred and bigotry against a minority was replaced by understanding and equality. And the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes, and hopefully the patriarchy and glass ceilings will finally be smashed as well.

The funny thing is that many of the women now branded ‘terfs’ were in fact very vocal in the fight for gay rights. Many of them marched against section 28, campaigned for civil partnerships and supported same-sex marriage. Monstrous bigots.

@Quaggars

Being gay isn't a choice. There's a big difference between someone's sexuality and them being trans.

Being gay isn't a choice, but being trans is?
That's what you seem to be saying and surely that's ridiculous - people who are trans won't choose to be trans just like someone who is gay or lesbian won't either!
You just are.
Just like I'm not and know I'm not.

The thing is that the term trans covers many different kinds of people. There are people with body dysmorphia who genuinely feel like they are in the wrong body and for them being trans is not a choice. But then it also covers people (mostly men) who like cross dressing and for them it is a choice - they don't have to dress in women's clothing but they like to and get pleasure out of that. Then the term now covers people who are just normal people given ever increasing options of sexuality to identify into and the groups are fluid so you can move from one to another depending on how you feel. That covers you, me, and everyone and it is very much a choice because it's an ideology and you can choose to believe in it or not to.

@Quaggars

Being gay isn't a choice. There's a big difference between someone's sexuality and them being trans.

Being gay isn't a choice, but being trans is?
That's what you seem to be saying and surely that's ridiculous - people who are trans won't choose to be trans just like someone who is gay or lesbian won't either!
You just are.
Just like I'm not and know I'm not.

What about Pips Bunce tho, is he compelled to be 'his true woman self'? on Wednesdays, Thursdays and Fridays and then not the rest of the week? I dont think I have mis gendered Pips, its a Tuesday so I think I am ok?

You see, you straight away attack instead of talking. That's why there is never any progress.

I have personally argued for women's rights and safe spaces to be upheld, I have learnt a lot from these pages, things that hadn't even occurred to me.
I have have explained and won over a couple of trans friends specifically on female loos.

But what's the point when all some people seem to want is to win an argument ?

@Marmaladee

4 please. End all this transphobia. Luckily it's mostly old people who read the daily Mail and like Piers Morgan so they'll die out

Given that this post is on here, can I assume this old people who will die thing is actually generally indicating a wider group than just old people who read the mail?

If so, I would rather an honest statement than this hinting stuff.

If not. I looked it up for another thread earlier. 1 million people buy the paper copy daily (I think it said). It's the second largest paid for paper apart from the metro which is free.

What do you mean by old? Got an age band?

All a bit ageist isn't it to assume old people who read the male are somehow much more awful than young ones?!

Anyway.

So I know a 70yo who reads the mail. His choice in paper is what it is. He's not evil though. He volunteers and is kind and patient and what not. Interesting chap too, has travelled the world.

He's got 7 grandchildren including 3 under 2, and a teen who has a trans ID.

So happily and hopefully he'll be dead soon. Well his health is not brilliant so you could be in luck!

That would leave 4 siblings in their 30s with no parents (his wife died 20 years ago) and the grandchildren including ones who won't remember him with no grandparents on that side.

When these things are said, do you think about what you're actually saying? That you will be happy that people like him will (hopefully) be dead soon?

Given the mail does have an older demographic of readers, that's a lot of people. A lot more than has killed covid.

Is this how you genuinely feel? I'd be really interested to know.

Sorry my last comment was in reply to PandorasMailbox

The quote didn't copy

Oh I should mention that although I've not asked. I would be very surprised if he thought biology was immaterial, man/ women were identities that are just opted in and out of. And that having self ID into hosp wards, prisons, in patient MH wards, and the everyday places that women and girls use that used to be single sex... Was a ridiculous idea. And obviously risky.

As does pretty much everyone in real life.

Many of us were allies until all the threats and abuse started.

See, I honestly don't get this attitude.
"I used to be an ally until some people who were trans were abusive and that's it, I'm not an ally to any trans person anymore?
Sounds like you weren't much of an ally in the first place if that's the case.
Trans people aren't all the same, not everyone will send threats etc.
Just like those who write abusive comments who are "GC" won't be representative of everyone who is.

@Imasoulman

You see, you straight away attack instead of talking. That's why there is never any progress.

I have personally argued for women's rights and safe spaces to be upheld, I have learnt a lot from these pages, things that hadn't even occurred to me.
I have have explained and won over a couple of trans friends specifically on female loos.

But what's the point when all some people seem to want is to win an argument ?

I've talked for almost 5 years until I've been blue in the face. Defence is not attack. Why don't you just spout the no debate rhetoric and be done with it, because that's essentially what you're saying.

We asked for debate until we were hoarse. Instead we were de-platformed, threatened and doxxed. If you're telling me to be nice, you've already missed that boat.

As for winning an argument, if you think that's what this is all about, you've obviously misunderstood the argument completely.

Disagreement is not an attack, but then there are those who believe words are literal violence so.....

@Quaggars

Many of us were allies until all the threats and abuse started.

See, I honestly don't get this attitude.
"I used to be an ally until some people who were trans were abusive and that's it, I'm not an ally to any trans person anymore?
Sounds like you weren't much of an ally in the first place if that's the case.
Trans people aren't all the same, not everyone will send threats etc.
Just like those who write abusive comments who are "GC" won't be representative of everyone who is.

Same energy as "I was all on board with feminism until women were mean to me".

Not RTFT but will.

To answer the OP.

My major concern. Especially after the monkey cock and wispa thing. And seeing people (ok on Twitter!) twisting themselves in knots to defend 'their side'. It's lies, girls should be polite, if they're not comfy with dick around the place (real or dildo) then they need to see more dicks as it's just a body part.. etc etc.

I have a massive concern that there will be a massive massive backlash against gay rights, GNC people, and very possibly other groups.

This idea that it's women who say 'nope sex is important' are a huge threat and responsible for murder is another claim that is clearly nonsense.

The threat to all of us is from men. Male ones. And from those who cannot bear for anyone to veer too far from the role imposed on them. From the actual right wing- the ones who care nothing about or feel antipathy towards loads of people- the xenophobes, misogynists, racists, the ones who do not want to hear about or see LGB people and T as well, because sex role includes heterosexuality at it's heart, with masculine men and feminine women.

But for some reason it's preferable to demonise a bunch of women who vocalise what 99.999% of the world KNOW. Than try to tackle male violence, and the feelings they have about those they see as other, or lesser, or just weird.

I don't get it at all.

I think I can already see how this is going to end and its fairly cynical....

Frankly I think a lot of the hype and focus came from online celebrities that kids just lapped up, on YouTube, tik tok etc. They heavily rely on the victim narrative - being a victim of horrible transphobes, then feminists, and teens love to support a victim. Teenagers love to feel as though there is something just for them their parents just don't 'get'.

Well, that narrative is already looking a bit tired. Trans celebrities are now just too popular, too accepted to be victims any more, so the next big thing to win clicks and an army of defenders will be to detransition..... A couple of really big youtubers already have.... So I am told ( I never heard of them....)

And they can claim a really big enemy that everyone likes to rally against - capitalism. Big Pharma companies who exploited them, rich doctors who mutilated them for life, and the celebrities who endorsed and supported them.....

This whole horror show has been about clicks, likes, money and on line status. In this next cynical ploy, a whole load of genuinely vulnerable people, from transgender folk to the LGB community to Harry Potter actors, will be left blinking in bewilderment at what happened, whilst someone somewhere rubs their hands together in glee with dollar signs in their eyes.

Sone friendships and reputations will never be retrieved, though.

Screenshot this. I have my crystal ball out....

Only up to page 3 but another lightbulb.

This is nothing to do with women. Any of it.

That phrase- the right sees women as private property and the left sees them as public property.

This is what it's all about. No more, no less.

It's about men who see women (and children) as needing to be liberated from repression. So they can become sex positive, open minded, have opportunities in employment in the range of sex 'work', be comfortable with nudity in general for themselves and others, and free them from the old fashioned ideas that mean they don't have fun exploring their sexuality with all sorts of combinations of partners and acts. The idea that children are sexual beings is also not a new one. (There is an angle of that for sure it's PIE all over again). That sort of fun stuff.

On the other side the private property view. Sometimes not too extreme. Other end of the scale taleban etc. Having women and girls (children) available for sex but only to you and your friends. Or to hire out if you need money. Or used as a punishment. More behind closed doors or made 'acceptable' by things like child marriage, male right to have sex with wife, women and girls need to protect themselves and if it's their older brothers or religious leader well they couldn't help it. Shhhh.

That's all it is, isn't it.

Problem is men tend to relate to each other and don't really think of women and girls in the same way.

Here we have women being blamed for stuff men are doing. Well that's new.

This isn't going to end well for us.

I seem to be in a pessimistic mood suddenly.

And the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes, and hopefully the patriarchy and glass ceilings will finally be smashed as well.

Am I reading this correctly Mishy! I am agreeing with you.??? We hope that bigoted gender stereotypes are eliminated completely!!!! That is what thread after thread that you have participated in has said. And that the patriarchy and glass ceilings are smashed!!!!

All for it. And yes. I sure hope my teen does defy all gender stereotypes and smashes lots of proverbial glass ceilings. That is what the fuck I am here fighting for. So they have a chance to do so fairly, and to start moving the fight against sexist discrimination forward once again.

So not one more female is passed over for a role because they are of child bearing age, that not one more female loses their job because they are pregnant, that females are going to be able to take those roles set aside for them to make sure females are properly considered when policies are made. That their friend who have worked so very hard to progress in their under 16 female football careers are then paid well in their professional women’s football career and they don’t lose their goalie spot to a male who is biologically able to jump higher, quicker and has longer arms, larger hands amongst the most obvious advantages.

Yes. I think my teen will also be fighting to uphold and progress the rights for females when they are older!

God sorry another thing...

'22:49FloralBunting

I hope for sanity and a return to the decent trajectory of genuine equality we had been on.'

I said to DH years ago. Before all this. When you look around the world. The relative freedom, opportunity, control over children etc that women have in some European countries and in similar forms in other places.

Are really pretty recent and its a tiny amount of the world population.

What if it's a blip? What if where we have been ok at some point it's an anomaly.

Look at what happened in Iran, Afghanistan. Egypt. Loads of places we have been ok and then just lost it all.

There is a massive global resurgence of religious extremism, right wing and extreme right wing support. That bodes well for no one who is not the default male in that area.

Yes we keep fighting and we see gains but still we get pushed back and back.

So yes pessimistic. It's still a man's world. And everywhere we only have what they decide to give us. And they can take it back in the blink of an eye.

@Imasoulman

Just wondering if you had this happen to you at school, or even in a workplace: a group of decent people successfully campaign for a change or flexing of a rule. For a while it works, people behave themselves and everyone is relatively happy. Then some people start taking liberties and taking the piss - pushing boundaries and asking for yet more.

Then what happens is the Head Teacher, or the company boss say, “right, you haven’t behaved responsibly and in the spirit of what we originally agreed to so tough luck, we’re going back to how it was before”.

The minority spoil it for the majority.

This is what I think has happened with trans rights. Although sadly I’m not so sure those that have spoiled it are indeed the minority.