Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

[dyslek]

I can see three scenarios.

1. women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
2. the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
3. due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.

@CuriousPanda

It's not possible to be "neither male nor female", unless you don't fucking exist. Unless some of the posters on here have evolved and transcended to become sentient wafts of vapour, then we're all either male or female.

#sentientvapourisvalid

This thread proves to me that this new grouping of feminist threads is to allow continued monitoring and collaborative bombardment by particular sectors. Far easier if it is all lumped under a bright neon headlight, isn’t it?Just my observation

Indeed @BadGherkin

Yesterday a thread on the surrogacy board with about 150 posts was deleted after some chiding and warnings to #bekind

Apparently the surrogacy board is a support board and not the place to discuss the ethics.

@FannyCann - if it is a support board, shouldn’t it be divided into Surrogacy - Support/Chat and Surrogacy - Ethical debate (or equivalent), in keeping with the “tidying up” that is occurring? Else it would be simply shutting down of discussions that are important…. oh!

Absolutely right of course but, equally, it's just as easy for all the knowledgeable, clever women on MN to combat all the ludicrous arguments about sex is a spectrum etc all in one place. I mean we have it down pat now right?

I also think it's backfiring on those who pushed for it. It really distills the weakness of their position seeing it all written down in one place.

I'm not optimistic for the future. Not sure what scenario will play out, but it feels like things are getting worse for women all the time and most women don't seem to care, are unaware or don't think it's a big deal
.

Given the increasing prevalence of misogynistic porn, pressure on women to adhere to unrealistic beauty standards from the beauty/fashion/cosmetic surgery industries, transactivism eroding safeguarding and removing even the language women can use to talk about it, I really feel for the future for young women.

Add climate change into this which destabilise the economy and the environment and cause mass migrations of people in a few decades and I think we are stuffed, basically.

I was also on the Surrogacy thread. I also felt the monitors had jumped on it. The OP referred to the mother of his child as a 'carrier'. That was all okay and 'in the spirit'. It was only NITS when women pointed out that was offensive.

@Doyoumind

I was also on the Surrogacy thread. I also felt the monitors had jumped on it. The OP referred to the mother of his child as a 'carrier'. That was all okay and 'in the spirit'. It was only NITS when women pointed out that was offensive.

Really?!

Thats shocking

Where was "trans rights" mentioned?

Where was "trans rights" mentioned?

With a murder.

Likely by a very militant male TRA/MRA/incel, of a prominent female activist/campaigner, with a social media published 'justification'.

Whereupon those allied to the TRA's/MRA's/incels will scramble to get away from any association with them, including leading retailers, universities and government organisations with Stonewall logos on any literature. The Guardian will try to purge all of its pro-TRA columns. Supporters on Twitter and Facebook will go remarkably quiet as people trawl through their timelines looking for past evidence of TRA support. HR departments will frantically try to edit their firms diversity edicts and shared toilets will be rapidly returned to normal configurations.

This is why it is so important to screenshot and archive everything and anything TRA's/MRA/incel supporters do and say, using tools like Wayback Machine. People will be trying to deny their allegiance to the transgender cause and continue as if nothing had happened. It will take years to hunt them all down and get them out of their jobs if they have a role that involves a safeguarding element.

[quote GromblesofGrimbledon]@Sonarl

Sex is decided at the moment of conception when a sperm penetrates an egg. Women and men result from female and male embryos. How they dress as adults, what hobbies they enjoy, whether they like wearing high heels, or not is all personality.

My God how I wish the world would just accept and embrace this. Surely this is the definition of freedom. 👆🏻

It won't happen though, sadly... You can't jump up and down like a child shouting "look at me! look at me!" if it's just personality. You can't get the attention and "validation" you so desperately seek if you're just another boring bastard that no one cares about, and heels and lipstick does not a personality make. [/quote]
My God how I wish the world would just accept and embrace this.

Same here. I for one welcome men in dresses into the fold. You’re welcome to pee with me, next stall down (some of us have shy bladders).

secular111

Unfortunately I fear the murder scenario is entirely possible. Equally unfortunately I don’t think it will be a catalyst for change. It is amazing what devotees to a cause will make excuses for (see the recent indecent exposure incident) and victim blaming continues to be rife especially where a woman is the victim.

@user888

Eh nah. Dress as you please. Sex segregated spaces are still required. You're not welcome to pee next to me if you've got a cock, unless the toilets are explicitly mixed sex with secure cubicles and women have the choice of another single-sex option.

I don't care what you wrap your cock up in: dress, mini skirt, ball-gown. Knock yourself out. But keep it out of women and girls' spaces.

If you don't mind men in women's private spaces then you can campaign for 3rd spaces. You don't get to dictate what most other women want.

user888 said earlier that he's male. He's happy for the men in dresses to use the men's with him.

@OldCrone

user888 said earlier that he's male. He's happy for the men in dresses to use the men's with him.

Thanks for the clarification! This makes sense.

I'd like to think a 3rd space would keep everyone happy but it doesn't seem to. TRAs don't want it because transwomen want the "validation" of being around women. And that's whether or not women want it. What women want is irrelevant.

@GromblesofGrimbledon It was clear of course in my head and I thought by the clue of shy bladder/need to use a stall, but on rereading I see how it reads.

Blokes in frocks, fine. Less happy for women to waltz in, whatever they’re wearing, but I do take pity on them in their queues and wouldn’t stand in their way. As many have suggested, make the men’s all gender – expand male ‘bandwidth’ in general. That’s the only real solution I see to this. I'm fairly confident there wouldn't be an invasion big enough to discomfit the mens.

If every place had individual little rooms, like they do at the Wallace Collection and Whole Foods Picadilly (I’m something of an expert in public conveniences in London), that would be great, but few have the space for that, or even third spaces.

Sorry to go on about toilets. They’re inescapable.

Sadly I don't think a murder would change anything. They'd blame the victim and the public would go oh but she was a bigot wasn't she.

I'm very pessimistic. I think it'll all quiet down and everyone will claim it was just the crazy feminists being hysterical, no one actually sterilised little kids, move along now.

I do wonder what will become of those who want to identify as the opposite sex and receive “validation”in their identity when sex has been abolished as a category. There is no reasonable justification for separating sports, prisons, hospital wards, changing rooms or anything else by gender identity. Everything will become “all gender”. It seems like a bit of a Pyrrhic victory for the trans identifying, no?

1) women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.

Whatever your views on this topic, surely we can agree that it is hyperbolic to think that trans women competing in sport is a million miles away from women and children being treated as 'a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway'? I despair a little that this debate has become so hyper-polarised that neither side seems capable of accepting that the other has non-malign motivations.

Sorry, that should be "hyperbolic to think that trans women competing in sport will lead to women and children being treated as a sub-human resource"!

hyperbolic to think that trans women competing in sport will lead to women and children being treated as a sub-human resource

Yes, and you're the one that has said it, so sure, it is.

The objection is TW playing women's sport, and it's one part of a picture which includes rapists accessing victims in prison, women losing single sex provision in healthcare, rape counselling and DV settings, a shift in language and rights to divorce women from their reproductive rights, lesbians having to go back to underground networks to hide from men who want to interlope on their spaces and networks, and on and on.

None of that's hyperbole. All of it is currently occuring, or being campaigned for.

I'm sure many doing the campaigning have malign intent. I'm sure plenty more are just too lazy, blinkered and foolish to see what they're doing. It doesn't really matter. It needs to be fought against, and we will.

Do you truly believe that the majority of people who are in favour of trans women being able to participate in women's sports or use women's changing rooms have nefarious motivations? Do you honestly think that their end goal is treating women and children as "sub-human resources"?

@user888

Yes the toilet chat is inescapable and tedious. There are certainly bigger issues at play. Both sides claim that the other is obsessed with toilets. We clearly need a solution and "we just want to pee" doesn't cut it.

@PassingThrough2

Do you truly believe that the majority of people who are in favour of trans women being able to participate in women's sports or use women's changing rooms have nefarious motivations? Do you honestly think that their end goal is treating women and children as "sub-human resources"?

As I said in the previous post, no. I think they're lazy, blinkered and foolish.

@PassingThrough2

Do you truly believe that the majority of people who are in favour of trans women being able to participate in women's sports or use women's changing rooms have nefarious motivations? Do you honestly think that their end goal is treating women and children as "sub-human resources"?

No, I just think the majority who support it are ignorant of biology and haven’t thought through the consequences.