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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

609 replies

dyslek · 12/07/2021 21:22

I can see three scenarios.

  1. women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
  2. the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
  3. due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.
OP posts:
PurpleHoodie · 13/07/2021 07:18

I know it's inconvenient for some people that women have rights enshrined in law in this country.

Yes.

PurpleHoodie · 13/07/2021 07:19

I don't thinkPandahas the first clue about the UK or UK law.

Also this.

Leafstamp · 13/07/2021 07:23

Like Sonari said, TRAs like to tell themselves that those standing up for women’s rights, sex based rights and the safeguarding of children are all middle aged/older women.

This simply isn’t true - young people get it, my own teenage DC get it. Gay men get it. Young lesbians get it. Older males get it.

Most people know that people can’t change sex and that women need protecting from predatory men and children need safeguarding.

Helleofabore · 13/07/2021 07:54

Well, I am curious now panda.

Which people with DSDs are NOT either male or female? And do you think needing those people’s medical conditions to describe trans people’s bodies is an abhorrent use of those people and their bodies? Only a small proportion of those with DSDs are trans.

We hear this constantly from people with DSDs that they are not on this earth to be useful to explain gender identity. Maybe you missed those requests.

Helleofabore · 13/07/2021 08:06

I think that when the compensation cases start coming through from detransitioners, and they will, it will really be painful for many people to acknowledge that they supported purely affirming treatment.

I honestly think it foolish to believe it is only ‘old’ people fighting this. They are forgetting this current cohort of teenagers who are being harmed, even if it this harm is restricted to severe mental health issues, will start reaching the age where they process exactly what has happened.

I expect that they are going to be furious. Absolutely furious to think that adults were advocating such poor health standards for them.

And that governments allowed their hopes of equality to have regressed.

If you honestly think it is only ‘old’ people fighting this, you need to pull your head out of the sand. And probably stop reading social media echo chambers.

drspouse · 13/07/2021 08:07

Everyone with a Y chromosome that works and a body that responds to it is male.
Everyone else is female.

FannyCann · 13/07/2021 08:15

We never watched Game of Thrones when it was first on. But DH got sucked into watching replays with the DDs. Then he started streaming the whole lot from the beginning. I like the music and would be sitting reading and then find myself watching the odd bit. Anyway I was struck how (loosely) it must reflect how life was for women in the past. Whores. Slaves. Breeders. Strategic breeding stock to be married off for political reasons. And somewhere behind the scenes support workers, rustling up a huge banquet at a moments notice to celebrate winning a huge battle that could have wiped them out even as they were roasting the fatted calf.

Anyway, I think life for women is heading the same way now if it isn't already there.

Sex work is work✅
Breeders ✅
Support class of workers ✅

And that's just in the western world.
Other parts, of course, still have arranged marriage ✅ and modern slavery✅

Aside of all that I love the costumes Daenerys wears Grin

IsItShining · 13/07/2021 08:22

Refusing to see, and allow for, the difference between male and female bodies leads to massive disadvantages to the female people involved.

It’s so damn sexist to ignore all of that and pretend that terminology matters more than facts.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 13/07/2021 08:29

I think trans people were accepted by most people, as others have said transwomen used the ladies without much issue

But then people who arent trans started pushing and pushing and then self ID was mooted….and honestly it’s understandable that people thought this was a good idea, but the same people were very naive if they thought that non trans people wouldn’t take the piss

And then sports and prisons…and even the most live and let live person started thinking ‘well this isn’t fair’

I don’t think this is going to end well either way

WomaninBoots · 13/07/2021 08:32

Not read the full thread but my concern is that the trans ideology is just part of a bigger problem. I'm not sure if we are too late already and we are actually watching the beginning of the collapse of western civilisation...

But I've not have my coffee yet and I'm probably being a bit pessimistic. I'm not a morning person.

Wink
AntiWorkBrigade · 13/07/2021 08:37

Again we get the tired old comparison with the growing acceptance of non-het sexuality. The sort of trans acceptance that insists on TWAW / TMAM is nothing like this. Rejecting homophobia does not require the whole of society to reconfigure how its entire understanding of one of the fundamental concepts in nature, the sexual binary. It simply meant not holding judgemental views of certain behaviours and relationships.

Not being a homophobe does not require me to force myself to change how I view myself. I’ve never felt I was female in any way other than as a result of the body I have and the way society has treated me as a result. This is not a permitted view.

This is not straightforward like refraining from judging LGB people. It means buying into an entire philosophy which is mind-bendingly confusing and contradictory once you look behind mantras and the sense - that the majority of people have - that they want to be fair, kind and do the right thing.

AlexaIWillNeverSayDucking · 13/07/2021 08:44

I think two things will happen next: there will be embarrassing transitions that the TRAs aren't really wanting associated with, they weren't super keen on Eddie Izzard but he will seem great compared to some sleazy Tory minister or famous criminal.
I also think there will be division, as the people I know who were genuinely dysphoric and want a quiet life are feeling appropriated by aggressive, unpleasant students who have only felt sexual, incel type rejection and think that makes them such victims. There will be a "not in my name," pushback from the former.

The movement can't continue indefinitely without an objective definition of trans, and that's where the next fight will be.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/07/2021 08:55

Some of them aren't, no.

All mammals are immutably male or female. It's about gametes. There are only two gametes. There are only two reproductive roles, large gametes (ova) and small gametes (sperm). Both are needed for reproduction. The bodies of people with disorders of sex development may have elements of both but they are organised more towards one or the other.

Here's a handy video, and you should subscribe to the whole channel if you are interested in this:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=XN2-YEgUMg0

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/07/2021 08:56

This is a good read too:

genderarguments.com/openletterbiologicalsex/

BadGherkin · 13/07/2021 08:57

This thread proves to me that this new grouping of feminist threads is to allow continued monitoring and collaborative bombardment by particular sectors. Far easier if it is all lumped under a bright neon headlight, isn’t it?
Just my observation….

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/07/2021 09:00

From the "Letter to The Guy on Twitter Who Wonders If Biological Sex Is Real"

Lately, I’ve seen a lot of debates break out on Twitter over biological sex  what defines it, how it can be measured, whether it exists at all. The men who dominate these debates are often experts in their fields, meaning they use terms like “bimodal distribution” and “nonstandard karyotypes” to make their otherwise mundane points. I think most of these points are foolish, tired rehashings of fallacies first identified by ancient Greeks in the fourth century BCE. They confuse  or, perhaps, intentionally conflate — imprecision with invalidity, social perception with social construction, and binarism with exclusivity. In other words, they trade in the all-too-familiar illogic that festers at the intersection of science and philosophy, where ontological cowardice appears as the highest form of nuance.
But here I go again, right? It’s so easy to get sucked into this debate, to get that hot indignation in your stomach that comes when a foolish claim is so proudly asserted. And I don’t even have skin in the game — binary or not, my sex will still land me squarely in the “paid more, raped less” category. So what’s the point beyond intellectual exercise? It seems more and more obvious to me that even entertaining the debate is a concession, an assent to women’s lives being made the subject of thought experiments and counterfactuals plucked from the air by some post-grad who, coincidentally, has never once worried about pregnancy from rape.
So that’s my quarter-through-the-year resolution: I’m not going to debate with you about the reality of biological sex, for the same reason I wouldn’t stand on the train platform debating the finer points of physics while the man on the tracks gets ground into meat. That might sound a little dramatic, a flourish of rhetoric to cover up a weak rebuttal. But how long have you spent reading up to this point? Five minutes? Ten? Then the world has fifty more mutilated girls than when you started. Were the men who carried out those mutilations confused about what makes a female body? Did they ponder chromosome parings and standard deviations when they chose who to cut? Or is that kind of nuance a luxury set aside just for educated, progressive, worldly men like you?

Your sophistry isn't impressive. We've seen it before.

Redapplewreath · 13/07/2021 09:31

It can only end in the acceptance in law that your inalienable, supported right to swing your arms around any way that you choose and that brings you happiness, ends at someone else's nose.

If your personal happiness rests on removing inclusion, access to public life, exclusion from key resources, lessening privacy and dignity, loosening safeguarding and forcibly redefining others against their consent..... you are going to need to find a different way to be happy.

TheRebelle · 13/07/2021 09:42

I think it’ll end when trans starts affecting more people’s lives, at the minute it’s all a bit abstract, most people probably think that trans people are having full surgery and hormones and are under the care of doctors, or their friends daughter is a transman but she’s lovely, really - once people are actually faced with a man using women’s facilities in their work place or taking places on their daughters sports teams or undressing at the local pool then ordinary people will start to push back. I do think it will take a few lawsuits and women being hurt in the process though.

Abhannmor · 13/07/2021 09:54

@EishetChayil

However it ends, women will be worse off.

I predict an even stronger swing to the right. Stonewall and its ilk have done so much damage to LGB and trans rights with their insistence that people believe dogmas like TWAW and TWAM.

It won't end well.

You are 100% correct I'm afraid . Lifelong socialist and gay rights supporter here. Worse again , many friendships will never recover, especially people in the 20s and 30s now. We must brace ourselves for one party rule or as near as dammit.
DaisiesandButtercups · 13/07/2021 10:04

If it is true about the powerful billionaires driving the trans agenda then I guess some Battle Star Gallactica style transhumanist future with human robot hybrids is where we are heading. Horrible experimentation on human beings to that end, right now our children are volunteering themselves for experimental drugs and surgery and we are powerless to stop them. As the numbers of detransitioners increase, if they can’t be silenced and the numbers volunteering for experimental medicine dwindle then perhaps others means will be used - prisoners perhaps.

If it is true and I hope it is just exaggerated but if it is true that billionaire owners of pharmaceutical companies are pushing this then I don’t know that we have much hope.

If ordinary people are able to take back power and democracy continues with all the appropriate checks and balances then I am much more hopeful. We may even see things improve for women and children as a result, for example tightening up safeguarding, exclusively female staff in women’s prisons, refuges, girls’ schools, midwifery, obstetrics and gynaecology so that no woman or girl even has to ask for another person of her sex to care for her, an acknowledgment that we need our own safe spaces and our own sports categories enshrined in law, the repeal of the GRA and in its place legal protections that people either sex can dress how they without discrimination so if women can wear skirts in a given workplace so can men etc if girls can wear skirts to school so can boys, a better understanding of biology among the general population, a new feminism which acknowledges our genuine physical differences from men and doesn’t seek to make us more like men or deny our differences but to understand women and work for our liberation whilst allowing that some of us want to put mothering our children first during the early years and don’t want to be pushed straight back into the workforce when they are still babies, and of course the recognition of the importance of keeping mother and baby together in healthcare, in prisons (enough mother and baby units and not separating them but finding another way that keeps them together as babies become toddlers) in the justice system generally, in immigration.

Sonarl · 13/07/2021 10:10

@drspouse

Everyone with a Y chromosome that works and a body that responds to it is male. Everyone else is female.
In a nutshell, this.

Anyone who can't understand this and thinks "sex is a spectrum", "people with DSDs are neither male or female", "sex is assigned at birth" needs to go back and redo Biology GCSE, paying attention this time.

All people with DSDs, which are nothing to to with trans anyway, are male or female, except in one extremely rare case with mutations in testosterone receptors (in which case they are functionally female). Sex is binary and anyone who believes otherwise is one of uneducated, dumb, wrong.

Sex is decided at the moment of conception when a sperm penetrates an egg. Women and men result from female and male embryos. How they dress as adults, what hobbies they enjoy, whether they like wearing high heels, or not is all personality.

ArtemesiaK · 13/07/2021 10:13

I think it will start to turn around when the issues get more out in the open. Sadly, many parents aren't aware that their children are being indoctrinated and many women don't think about the consequences of being forced to allow transwomen into their female spaces and sports. I love that some people are putting themselves in the firing line of abuse to get our points across and I'm sure women have more allies than we know, who are keeping their heads down and working behind the scenes. I fear that there will be an epidemic of unhappy detransitioners who were persuaded by this pervasive ideology to change gender before they were old enough to fully comprehend the consequences. And, with luck, all the people who were making pots of money out of all this, will be stood to account. Anyone who ever advocated for the "gender trumps sex" ideology will hang their heads in shame and try to delete their history.

mollythemeerkat · 13/07/2021 10:13

Not to mention that the new government envoy on LGBT rights, Lord Herbert, appears to be well in support of Stonewall.
Agreed about the pop in people - they do seem to be increasing.

GromblesofGrimbledon · 13/07/2021 10:16

@Sonarl

Sex is decided at the moment of conception when a sperm penetrates an egg. Women and men result from female and male embryos. How they dress as adults, what hobbies they enjoy, whether they like wearing high heels, or not is all personality.

My God how I wish the world would just accept and embrace this. Surely this is the definition of freedom. 👆🏻

It won't happen though, sadly... You can't jump up and down like a child shouting "look at me! look at me!" if it's just personality. You can't get the attention and "validation" you so desperately seek if you're just another boring bastard that no one cares about, and heels and lipstick does not a personality make.

TheRebelle · 13/07/2021 10:17

I think what’s helping the trans movement is the widespread idea that it would be too humiliating for a heterosexual man to dress up as a woman to get access to something he wants, so it just wouldn’t happen.

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