Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

[dyslek]

I can see three scenarios.

1. women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
2. the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
3. due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.

4)A return to religious orthodoxy in which the LGB get throw out with the T-plus. A re-discovered understanding of women's reproductive power that seems positive at first, but is turned against women by preferencing men in academic programs, work and politics. A slow descent into the oppression women have experienced throughout history.

@Imasoulman

You see, you straight away attack instead of talking. That's why there is never any progress.

I have personally argued for women's rights and safe spaces to be upheld, I have learnt a lot from these pages, things that hadn't even occurred to me.
I have have explained and won over a couple of trans friends specifically on female loos.

But what's the point when all some people seem to want is to win an argument ?

That's great @Imasoulman

You illustrate the point that it's often one person at a time and personal relationships are important on that.
Not everyone just wants to win an argument. The big arguments are being played out in the courts and in policy formation. One to one enlightenment within the community is important too though.

It's not a case of 'I used to be an ally until some people who are are trans were abusive'.

The chilling effect in society has meant that women have been silenced from voicing opinions relating to the immutable nature of sex. Any person or organisation who have dared to question gender ideology or use words associated with a specific sex have been harassed, 'cancelled' and have been pressured into releasing statements saying that they will 'do better' and 'educate themselves'. Women have been doxxed, threatened with death and rape, deplatformed, sacked from employment, called bigots, told that safeguarding concerns are a 'transphobic dog whistle' and scoffed at for creating 'moral panic'. Women in Scotland will be unable to discuss their views in their own homes without the fear of being prosecuted when the Hate Crime Bill comes into effect.

Massive, influential organisations such as Stonewall have influenced policies and laws while women's groups were excluded from conversations about issues which affect them directly.

The Scottish Government have ignored concerns raised by respondents to consultations, which constituted the majority of responses, because it does not fit the narrative they are looking for.

And let's not forget about this - www.terfisaslur.com

It hasn't been a case of a few extremists, it's been a chilling effect across society.

Just read this from mishy

'I imagine it will be learning from history and what happened with lesbian and gay people during the 80s.

That historical hatred and bigotry against a minority was replaced by understanding and equality. And the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes, and hopefully the patriarchy and glass ceilings will finally be smashed as well.

The future looks bright.'

Again with the excitement about old people dying! It's not a good look. Really. Ageist and callous and with no regard to them as people with families etc etc.

Anyway I find this bizarre 'make it up as you go along' thing just weird.

The 70s and 80s are not 'history'. I mean unless history starts while loads of people who were there are still alive and kicking.

What age are those who were in a society that fought for/ supported the changing attitudes in the 60s 70s and 80s now? Well a chunk of them will be getting on a bit now. And form a good part of the yay old bigots will be dead soon cohort...

To continue to mishy.

So the people who were middle aged then and were the age to be in politics and etc who are old now are bad

And the younger generation who apparently managed this massive social change without any support from anyone over about 40...

Where are they now?

They're... People like me! Oops. Middle aged. And yet these brave young people have what. Does something happen when you hit 40 to make you nasty and at maybe 70 you become downright evil?

Your idea that the 70s 80s etc are history and young people then were marvellous yet you seem to be unable to even think about what age they would be now...

I think they're just unable to think, full-stop @NiceGerbil

I'll never forget the glee that many transactivists showed at the death of Magdalen Berns. I've never wished death on anyone, not even the activists who threatened me with rape and death or doxxed me and hacked my accounts. But that's the difference between us and them isn't it? And yet, they come here and lecture us on what to say and how to behave. Just be kind they say.....

The 70s and 80s are not 'history'. I mean unless history starts while loads of people who were there are still alive and kicking

Not in terms of amount of years, but definitely in the terms of attitudes.
We've come a long way attitude wise when it comes to homophobia, racism, and transphobia.
It's a world away now from what attitudes were like back then.

Pity mysogeny is still so well entrenched

@TheRebelle

I think what’s helping the trans movement is the widespread idea that it would be too humiliating for a heterosexual man to dress up as a woman to get access to something he wants, so it just wouldn’t happen.

I think that is repeated often but it's another argument imported from overseas that doesn't really work in the UK, at least in England.

Men dressing up as women has a long long tradition here.

From ye olden days when women weren't allowed on the stage so men played their parts.

And. .. (history not my forte!)...

To pantomime dames which has been around since the 1700s...

And in general in my experience

Loads of TV progs had men dragging up
Stag nights and other celebritions men wandering around in heels and dresses is totally normal
When I was young plenty of musicians would don a frock and still be cool as fuck eg Nicky wire ..

I heard English men are renowned for this behaviour on some parts of the continent...

So for England at least is wearing makeup or dresses etc a massive beach of masculinity or social norms?

Not really no.

Of course the 70’s and 80’s are part of our history! And we learn from history. For instance we know Alan Turing agreed to court ordered cross-sex hormones to “cure” his homosexuality, and now Mermaids introduces children to GenderGP for the same reason.

@Quaggars

Being gay isn't a choice. There's a big difference between someone's sexuality and them being trans.

Being gay isn't a choice, but being trans is?
That's what you seem to be saying and surely that's ridiculous - people who are trans won't choose to be trans just like someone who is gay or lesbian won't either!
You just are.
Just like I'm not and know I'm not.

And this is where we get stuck.

The definition of trans is very broad and in practice all over the place it's already self ID in the UK.

I suppose you could choose to, in the modern lingo, identify as gay if you were straight quite easily if you didn't date or shag anyone.

I mean in theory.

And that's the difference between is X and identify as X. Not the same.

With trans IDs it's invisible, how you feel.
You can 'present' as masculine or feminine. Switch on different days if that fits. Ditto makeup, growing a beard, anything.

You can be a female person who identifies as a transman with no hormones surgery etc and a feminine presentation.
And for male people vice versa.

You define your identity. That's that.

You can be non binary and choose whichever stuff depending on where you feel most comfy. Again presentation is not prescribed.

There was an interview with a (?) non binary chap with a good job meaning suited and booted. Liked to wear lipstick sometimes at the weekend. Which changing room? Up to them.

And then there's people like me who according to stonewall are trans. But get told we are cis. And are female and under no illusions about how many creepy men are about and the lengths they will go to, to do their pervy thing.

It is quite frankly dishonest to pretend this is about a vulnerable group of people who are all lovely

When we all know that self ID is already happening, in loads of places, and there is no way to tell who is what. And if you could then what?l

(I think the answer to this is if men want to attack women and girls they will anyway so what's the problem... Yep that'll win hearts and minds..)

@Quaggars

Many of us were allies until all the threats and abuse started.

See, I honestly don't get this attitude.
"I used to be an ally until some people who were trans were abusive and that's it, I'm not an ally to any trans person anymore?
Sounds like you weren't much of an ally in the first place if that's the case.
Trans people aren't all the same, not everyone will send threats etc.
Just like those who write abusive comments who are "GC" won't be representative of everyone who is.

Same as many/ most women / girls think men (as a group) are fine until....

The death and rape threats directed to women. By those who were apparently fighting for the right to access etc...

It's how men behave. and these ones want or support self ID.

See the problem?

Women know a threat when we see it. We have learnt to often the hard way.

Honestly I think the next 'in' thing will come along and this will all be side lined. My work is super woke but I've deleted the pronouns bit from the signature and every day I notice other people who have too(it comes with pronouns line you have to delete!). The more it is pushed , the more people realise what's going on and decide to quietly push back

I think the answer to this is if men want to attack women and girls they will anyway so what's the problem... Yep that'll win hearts and minds.

Isn't this basically the same as saying 'men will attack trans women anyway whether they are sharing men's spaces or not so why bother making such a push to let trans women into female spaces?'

Of course it is. It's just you aren't even allowed to suggest the second scenario...

Also, completely disregards a whole range of behaviours that make women feel uncomfortable but which might be hard to prove - from voyeurism to domination and taking over spaces, from peeing all over the loo seat to thinking its hilaire to peer over the top of a door whilst a woman is on the loo (yup, happened to me....)

@Quaggars

The 70s and 80s are not 'history'. I mean unless history starts while loads of people who were there are still alive and kicking

Not in terms of amount of years, but definitely in the terms of attitudes.
We've come a long way attitude wise when it comes to homophobia, racism, and transphobia.
It's a world away now from what attitudes were like back then.

Maybe it depended where you lived. Probably.

I was at school and college with out gay boys and lesbians.

When I was growing up it was

Loads of anti racism music
Loads of women who smiled and were silly and... Yes there was always pressure on line looks but we had women with all sorts of looks
It was kind of more relaxed I suppose.

New romantics obv.

And mainstream fucking awesome music which was either subtly or overtly about gay rights / or just happened to be gay and on TOTP.

Remember the awesomeness of small town boy? A hit. Mainstream. The sharing the apple at the end.

You had boy George, Marilyn, Steve strange. fgth etc etc.

Men in makeup and frills and women who did not adopt a submissive gaze but met you in the eye...

In those days trade was going, the gay scene was exciting. There were gay men in entertainment all over the place.

In terms of rights, the NF were active. Riots. Recession. Thatcher. All those mates of saville were doing their thing and everyone turned a blind eye...

It was a different time but it's not history.

The blanket view of how it was does not apply everywhere.

The backlash to all that freedom and activism came in the mid 90s and it all went to shit.

And now in my industry. Loads of openly gay men. Fuck all openly lesbian women.

So a mixed result in the end.

Honestly I think the next 'in' thing will come along and this will all be side lined.

This honestly to me just sounds like someone that I know that says that "everyone seems to be gay or lesbian nowadays."
With absolutely no thought that maybe, just maybe, it might be because it's more accepted nowadays so they feel they are able to be?

@Quaggars

Honestly I think the next 'in' thing will come along and this will all be side lined.

This honestly to me just sounds like someone that I know that says that "everyone seems to be gay or lesbian nowadays."
With absolutely no thought that maybe, just maybe, it might be because it's more accepted nowadays so they feel they are able to be?

Do you think the huge increase in young trans people is because it hasn't been as socially acceptable until now?

For teens it does seem to be like the music tribes when I was young. In DDs friendship group at school about 10 or 12 children, they all have a trans ID of some type.

They are definitely the children who would have been 'alternative' when I was a teen.

This idea that every single person who identities as trans must feel this deeply and no one would ever state a trans ID otherwise is strange. People are complicated.

Incidentally given what you said. Why are women who say hold on a sec, what about this... Who fall under the stonewall trans umbrella. TOLD that they are cis?

How does that fit with your comment?

And it won't go away as

There are people with sex dysphoria
GNC people still get shit and this approach makes them feel more in control

But mainly because men want it and benefit from it. The detriment to women and children is also appealing to plenty of men without trans IDs

The hysterical trendiness feels temporary to me though, at my workplace it's pretty insane.

I think I didnt express myself well sorry, the issue won't disappear because women's rights are forever under attack but I think the idiots like those at my work adding pronouns to everything will move on - because actually they don't really care about the issue, it's just what they think they should be rabbiting on about.

The darker side of things and the attacks on those of us who want to protect women's safe spaces will remain. But as a DV survivor, I do it think this is a battle we will never stop fighting due to the nature of some men.

But mainly because men want it and benefit from it. The detriment to women and children is also appealing to plenty of men without trans IDs

YY

A six year old boy has been told that he was assaulted by a woman. The police believe there are other victims who presumably will be told they were mistaken if they say a man assaulted them.

If a generation of children survive a childhood of institutional gaslighting I think when they are adults they will do that thing that children do when they decide to put right the wrongs of their youth. The pendulum will swing so hard in the opposite direction it will be a wrecking ball.

twitter.com/hjoycegender/status/1415055170493468674?s=21

Are they unable to see what we see?

Please god that wrecking ball swings hard and fast because I can’t help feel, that despite our best efforts, we are failing children.

I hope you are seeing this First Minister.

Do you see what we see?

[quote Leafstamp]@Imasoulman

Just wondering if you had this happen to you at school, or even in a workplace: a group of decent people successfully campaign for a change or flexing of a rule. For a while it works, people behave themselves and everyone is relatively happy. Then some people start taking liberties and taking the piss - pushing boundaries and asking for yet more.

Then what happens is the Head Teacher, or the company boss say, “right, you haven’t behaved responsibly and in the spirit of what we originally agreed to so tough luck, we’re going back to how it was before”.

The minority spoil it for the majority.

This is what I think has happened with trans rights. Although sadly I’m not so sure those that have spoiled it are indeed the minority.[/quote]
Absolutely this, yes you are spot on