Question re relationships with trans people

[2021ismyyear]

Twitter is full of people that are prepared to defend trans rights at any cost. I’ve seen some hideous things written about people that believe otherwise. The insults against jk Rowling were hard to read. We saw it the other day when maya won her appeal case. People over ran social media with insults against “TERFS” etc.

I assume these people would have zero issue dating a trans person in that case? If trans women are women and sex doesn’t matter and it’s widely accepted that you can switch gender, then will those people start dating trans people? Will we see more women dating trans men for example? Will tinder do away with any search filters?

If not… why?

Pretty sure trans people are not falling over themselves to be dated by some cis people.

Funny that so many of them appear to take rejection on the basis of their sex so hard, then.

Pretty sure trans people are not falling over themselves to be dated by some cis people.

Pretty sure they are, given how often I see variations of this posted (better to spurn than be spurned), and that sexual desirability is validation at its most primal.

I truly hope there’s someone for everyone. I’m just disgusted by seduction-by-guilt as preached by people like Riley J. Dennis.

And people who date members of the opposite sex are bisexual. It's ok to be bi.

I should say that gay and lesbian people who date members of the opposite sex are bisexual, as are "straight" people who date members of the same sex. Because words have meanings.

If you call yourself a "woman", that's your gender.

Panda's posts all read like an internet questionnaire of the "answer these five questions to find out who you are" type. This way of dissemination of these "rules" seems to work at a superficial level on some people who then get angry when other people who aren't living in internet quiz world disagree!

No one is panicking over trans. Mostly we have seen the published training and education and simply realise that it is more or less a "story" explaining some quite complex human conditions in a simplified way, which, whilst it may give some comfort to those experiencing dysphoria, it clashes with existing rights and safeguarding, therefore does need to be discussed without the anger about believing or not believing the "story".

Far better to accept that people are able to see and understand beyond the superficial and engage properly, than simply rage posting about bigots.

People are tired of that.

I know I live a relatively sheltered life in many respects, but I don't know any trans people. I've also never been asked which sex or gender I am romantically or sexually attracted to.
Tbh, i don't really give it much thought. I don't know how anyone can say that they would or wouldn't date a person they don't know.

@chickenyhead

At the same time, a trans person is protected from sex discrimination on the basis of their legal sex. This means that a trans woman who does not hold a GRC and is therefore legally male would be treated as male for the purposes of the sex discrimination provisions, and a trans woman with a GRC would be treated as female. The sex discrimination exceptions in the Equality Act therefore apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC.

No, this isn't true, because the EA2010 also protects people against discrimination by perception. This means that even if you don't fall into one of the protected groups, but someone thinks you do and discrimates against you on that basis, you are still protected. If someone thinks that you're gay and denies you a job on that basis, that's discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation even if they were mistaken and you're not actually gay. Likewise, if a trans woman is discriminated against by someone who thinks she is a natal woman, she's protected under the same sex discrimination laws as a natal woman. What matters in law is that the discrimination happened; the actual sex or whatever of the person it was directed at is not actually that relevant. Which is as it should be - someone shouldn't be able to get away with discrimination on the grounds of sex just because they didn't realise their target was actually a trans woman.

That quote was directly from here:

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/our-statement-sex-and-gender-reassignment-legal-protections-and-language

Take up your disagreement there.

The legal definition of a woman is a female by sex.

@Biancadelrioisback

I know I live a relatively sheltered life in many respects, but I don't know any trans people. I've also never been asked which sex or gender I am romantically or sexually attracted to. Tbh, i don't really give it much thought. I don't know how anyone can say that they would or wouldn't date a person they don't know.

Sexual attraction tends to involve sex: if you're a lesbian or a heterosexual male, you don't want to have sex with a biological male whether you know them or not.

Likewise if you're a gay man or a heterosexual female, you don't want to have sex with a female-bodied person.

Of all these categories it is lesbians who are under pressure to change their sexuality: the 'cotton ceiling' is all about lesbians coming to terms with 'girl dick'.

@BaronMuchausen No I understand that in theory, but as someone who isn't only sexually attracted to one sex, it's hard to fully get my head around people saying they categorically wouldn't have sex with a person they don't know and have never seen/met based on their sex.

Btw that is definitely not me saying that sexual attraction to one sex is bad/wrong/unbelievable etc, I fully accept that I am probably in the minority, just that I, in my little brain, don't completely understand it.

Would Little OJ have a sexual relationship with a transman do we think?

He was asked about having sex with a transman on Twitter, and exploded about the utter homophobia of that question. Yeah, right.

[quote dyslek]@BlueberryCheezecake
Oh no you seem to have missed my post that explains what the OP is saying, here it is again

The OPs point is that many, possibly most, of the people testicularly screaming at women for not agreeing that twaw dont actually believe it themselfs.
Its a mantra that the movement demands be repeted (but not actually believed).
Another example thats even funnier of the non belief of the true believers is the irony that if tw were actually w, no one would really give a shit about them.

Your welcome.[/quote]
That screenshot earlier in the thread - "I see them as real women except for relationship purposes" - to me, that perfectly encapsulates it. Robin is telling women that they must believe and treat TW as W, but he, the bearer of testicles, need only pay lip service to the notion. He is not a believer, but he is still willing to insist that women must be. And he is clearly not alone amongst the testicle bearers. Over the last couple of years, I've tripped across it a few times from the other side, i.e. transpeople pointing it out rather than people like Robin being accidentally truthful.

The ones I can (half) remember were Zinnia Jones complaining that cis people didn't date trans people, and Blanchard responding by asking Jones if anyone explained, prior to transitioning, if anyone told them they were significantly cutting down their dating pool. Can't remember what/if Jones responded to that. Another was a young FtM complaining that on Tinder, 95% of the interest shown by gay men dried up when they found out they weren't male. That was a really sad one, and one of the very very few FtM commenters. Plenty of other tweets by multiple tweeters expressing male entitlement and rage that cis people won't shag them (too numerous to be individually memorable TBH).

But the absolute standout was an article a few years back entitled "Why Can't My Famous Gender Nonconforming Friends Get Laid?". These famous friends were Jacob Tobia and Alok Vaid-Menon. Alok is the one who made the comment on little girls being kinky, and stropped about using the female changing room of TopShop.

www.vice.com/en/article/wjq99z/why-cant-my-famous-gender-nonconforming-friends-get-laid

So yes, given the number of testicle bearers squealing at women that TWAW, few of those testicle bearers are getting jiggy with TW Alok and Jacob (they were looking for cis men in that article) so I'd say there's a fair bit of evidence that lots of testicle bearers say it but they don't believe it themselves.

Bianca it's really hard to even begin to understand something that you just don't feel at all

Easiest just to accept that they do and you're just never going to know what it feels like.

I haven't a spiritual bone in my body. I know people who believe, whether in the god of a mainstream religion or just a feeling there 'must' be something. I have no idea what that feels like

Ditto gender identity. Just not got one. I accept others do and for some the feeling results in terrible dysphoria.
I don't have any idea what having one would feel like.

You are not wrong there Gerbil.
Im not sure if I have a gender identity...I don't feel like I do but perhaps it's because I feel like who I am fits with my body? God I've no idea. It doesn't make sense to me!

It's not that tricky to understand why someone says little girls are kinky is not going to have wide appeal when dating, surely.

Whether you fancy men women or both. And the sex of the body is pretty fundamental. No one goes out with people whose personality they don't find appealing.

Of course it can't be that it's all about genital fetishism and hatred.

As with most things, it's just not that black or white. I believe that transwomen are women and vice versa- and if they need to access services for the appropriate gender then of course they should be able to. I haven't actually met that many trans people throughout my life, including when single and dating, but if I had and we liked each other (they were funny, clever, I was attracted to them etc, and they felt the same), then I would have. Lots of people don't have strict rules about what types of people they can or can't be attracted to.

it's just not that black or white.

Unlike Meredith in the Vice article.
I do think that if you firmly believe TWAW/TMAM, you can’t look yourself in the mirror (something Jacob and Alok either haven't done or do too much) if you don’t include them in your dating pool.

Likewise, if a trans woman is discriminated against by someone who thinks she is a natal woman, she's protected under the same sex discrimination laws as a natal woman.

This would apply to any male, if they were mistakenly perceived as a woman on sight or due to some other reason and discriminated against on that basis.

Sexual orientation is based on external physical characteristics, not gametes and chromosomes.

The core of your external physical characteristics are CAUSED BY gametes and chromosomes. It's why shoulders/arms/hands are invariably a dead giveaway on a trans woman. It's why so many dating sites include height/build.

I'm a heterosexual woman (using the definition understood by the vast, vast majority of English speakers over the centuries ie a biological female) and am attracted to the physicality of men, and how their phsyique is different to mine. My bloke is the same height as me, but has a classic male torso with broad shoulders. And proper big men's hands. As I'm not a lesbian, I can't fancy trans men as I'm just not attracted to female bodies; they might have removed the breasts and have a synthetic hormone-induced beard (can't stand facial hair), but they still have a female outline. Maybe it's an evolutionary instinct based on silhouettes.

Maleness is also about more than obvious height and strength; I find Ben Whishaw incredibly attractive although he is slight; he is very definitely male. See also Orlando Bloom in his pretty elven Legolas days.

I think so many people now spend their lives hunched over their phones looking at tiny 2D images that they've forgotten what it's like to meet someone in the flesh, where you instantly receive far more information from gait, stance, presence etc. The kind of information that indicates male/female very quickly in most situations.

It also applies to a white person mistaken for a BAME person and discriminated against on that basis. Because the purpose of it is to tackle discrimination, not to provide a gotcha argument for trans activists.

I don't know how anyone can say that they would or wouldn't date a person they don't know.

Because most people know their own sexual orientation. I would never date a female person, because I am heterosexual.

I believe that transwomen are women and vice versa- and if they need to access services for the appropriate gender

This is a statement of faith. You are saying that anyone who claims to be a woman, is a woman, just because they say they are.

There are few services "for the appropriate gender" and they would be set up by trans activists. Most single sex services are for the appropriate sex. Nothing to do with gender identity.

" I think so many people now spend their lives hunched over their phones looking at tiny 2D images that they've forgotten what it's like to meet someone in the flesh where you instantly receive far more information from gait, stance, presence etc. The kind of information that indicates male/female very quickly in most situations."

Yes. Definitely.

I don't know how anyone can say that they would or wouldn't date a person they don't know.

Generally if someone is heterosexual, they only date people of the opposite sex to them. Since that is literally what 'heterosexual' means. So surely it's not terribly surprising if they exclude all people of the same sex as them from their dating pool (without having met them)? That obviously in no way means that they would automatically date absolutely anyone who was the opposite sex from them!

So nobody is going to choose specifically who to date without meeting them. But they can probably exclude a few categories without meeting the individuals. For example I wouldn't date women (because I'm not a lesbian). For very different reasons, neither would I choose to date axe murderers, smokers, drug addicts, 20 year-olds or 80 year-olds (I'm 49). I can very confidently say that without meeting them individually.

Ereshkigalangcleg

"I don't know how anyone can say that they would or wouldn't date a person they don't know."

Because most people know their own sexual orientation. I would never date a female person, because I am heterosexual.

Yes. Very much so.

Not including bi-sexual people: Straight, Lesbian and Gay people will ONLY romantically date/have sex with Females, or males, according to their Orientation.

It really is that simple.