Question re relationships with trans people

[2021ismyyear]

Twitter is full of people that are prepared to defend trans rights at any cost. I’ve seen some hideous things written about people that believe otherwise. The insults against jk Rowling were hard to read. We saw it the other day when maya won her appeal case. People over ran social media with insults against “TERFS” etc.

I assume these people would have zero issue dating a trans person in that case? If trans women are women and sex doesn’t matter and it’s widely accepted that you can switch gender, then will those people start dating trans people? Will we see more women dating trans men for example? Will tinder do away with any search filters?

If not… why?

The words for gender are feminine and masculine. The words for sex are male and female. The words man and woman (well, let’s be honest, just woman really) are the contested countries in a war over linguistics and semantics. I recognise this, whilst also recognising that the genderist definition of “woman” is regressive and virtually meaningless. To not even recognise there is a conflict going on over these words is gaslighting of the highest order.

Honestly, there's nothing inherently wrong with raising your kid as cis (or as you would call it, use the "sexed" labels) until the kid mentions anything otherwise.

LOL, yes only on Mumsnet do people believe in biological sex.

No, woman is a gender identity, as defined by UK law

It's no such thing. It is covered under the protected characteristic of sex not gender reassignment.

Some people believe the earth is flat.
Some people believe transmen are not human females and transwomen are not human males. They are entitled to believe what they like . However, we are also entitled to think it is a load of nonsense. Unfortunately it is a load of nonsense which denies homosexuals their freedom to love others of their sex and denies women the right to name themselves and demand as a group the equality and right to safety denied them by the patriarchy.

I think Curious Panda may have left an important bit out of bold before, when claiming what the law states as man/woman
where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

Also I’m sure I’ve read somewhere, a definition, from the EA2010 (?) or discussion as reported in Hansard that says:
A woman is a female of any age
A man is a male of any age

I’m sure someone will have a link handy

Panda has done an impressive gish gallop of poor arguments across several threads last night.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/212?view=plain

Not sure how much you'll get out of this, but here's what I'd consider an interesting read:

https://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/toward-an-end-to-appropriation-of-indigenous-two-spirit-people-in-trans-politics-the-relationship-between-third-gender-roles-and-patriarchy/

Or if you want more of a scolding from people who think similarly to you in many other ways:

https://ourliveswisconsin.com/article/dear-queer-white-people-cultural-appropriation/

Nothing about the UK definition of sex mentions "man" or "woman" once.

This is not true. I mean, did you think we just didn't know or weren't going to check? EyesOpening has kindly posted the legislation wording for you.

No point arguing with you, you don't know enough to hold your own.

You're right. All this person has is bluster, arrogance and insults. It reminds me of Twitter.

It means nothing. Show a lesbian a picture of a passing trans woman and a passing trans man, and she's 99% going to pick the trans woman.

But I digress. I wanted to reply to this gem after I went to bed. Show a lesbian a picture of a biological male who genuinely looks like a woman and she's going to pick that one over a picture of a female who looks superficially like a man. That's not really that surprising, is it? That she would pick an apparent woman?

So i guess it's too bad for the overwhelming majority of trans people who don't pass as the opposite sex, then? Isn't that in itself a bit transphobic? And the fact that only a tiny number of lesbians were prepared to date an MTF trans person in the study, despite no doubt proclaiming on social media how much they were "with the T" is telling. They know they are only attracted to women, and that MTF trans people don't do it for them.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Not sure how much you'll get out of this, but here's what I'd consider an interesting read:

[[https://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/toward-an-end-to-appropriation-of-indigenous-two-spirit-people-in-trans-politics-the-relationship-between-third-gender-roles-and-patriarchy]]/

Or if you want more of a scolding from people who think similarly to you in many other ways:

[[https://ourliveswisconsin.com/article/dear-queer-white-people-cultural-appropriation]]/

Interesting articles, thanks. When middle-class westerners, atop the heirarchy of needs, use "indigenous peoples" to represent a return to a more natural way of living, it seems like a particularly crass form of orientalism.

And using the word 'indigenous' outside of a specific context is dodgy. Used by people of european heritage, it carries the same colonial connotations as 'native' because it centres the peoples who 'came after' them from elsewhere.

I'm male, attracted to this corner of mumsnet by the calibre of discussion and yes, the all-too-frequent car crashes that happen whenever someone with an unsupportable ideology stops in to pit their wits against the witches. As Ereshkigalangcleg put it, "In my experience the type of people who turn up here to school the mummies have no self awareness whatsoever. Unconvincing bluster is all they have."

I'm also American, and in the times in which we live, grateful not to be resident in my mother country, with its captured mainstream media and legions of zombies folks who just want to be 'nice'.

Being heterosexual, I have no interest in coupling with a man with a female penis, and a simulacrum of a vagina also holds no attraction. To be crude, I suppose an unaltered trans man might fit the bill, were it not for the unpalatable delusions between their ears. To call people like me transphobic or shallow because we sexually reject trans people wholesale may comfort our curiously gender captured panda in some strange way, but it's water off a duck's back. Expecting lesbians to accept penis is of course unspeakably rapey.

There's two glorious threads on here for the lurkers tonight.

As morning glory, they are unpalatable fare indeed. But I'm captured in my own way.

@CuriousPanda

Where is the ‘social construction’ of ‘gender identity’ defined? What does it mean to identify as a woman? And, as the law puts it, ‘live as a woman’?

What is the objective correlative? How does gender identity correlate to biological sex? If someone with a penis, prostate etc (without a womb, uterus, vagina etc) has an internal perception of himself as a ‘woman’, what does it mean?

What is the fundamental difference between a man who supposedly 'connects with his feminine side' say by expressing his emotions or taking an interest in people, and a transwoman?

And why is it that all the debates (insofar as ‘debate’ is appropriate when ‘no debate’ is a mantra on one side) around gender identification concern women?

@user888
Indeed. No heterosexual man will be sexually interested in a transwoman. Yet the 'cotton ceiling' never seems to reference Y-fronts. Because the drivers of gender ideology are heterosexual men who identify as women thereby identify as lesbians, and want to have sex with lesbians. Not fellow transwomen 'lesbians' of course...

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No point arguing with you, you don't know enough to hold your own.

You're right. All this person has is bluster, arrogance and insults. It reminds me of Twitter.

PBP with a personality disorder, no scientific training and no children. I'm not sure why we're forced to listen to this unqualified person's drivel on here, I literally wouldn't literally give them the time of day in RL.

It means nothing. Show a lesbian a picture of a passing trans woman and a passing trans man, and she's 99% going to pick the trans woman.

Er, hello, pheromones?

Are you a virgin?

This is why I tell my kids not to rely on tinder. I've seen plenty of picture of attractive butch lesbians that I find attractive, but I've never once wanted to have sex with one I met in RL because, unfortunately, inconveniently really, I am heterosexual. I can no more change that than change the fact I'm female.

Who do I complain to about this lack of gender assignment? Is it PALS or someone else?

".....And your precious UK Law.....!

Show a lesbian a picture of a passing trans woman and a passing trans man, and she's 99% going to pick the trans woman.

No.

It means nothing. Show a lesbian a picture of a passing trans woman and a passing trans man, and she's 99% going to pick the trans woman.
I think that anyone who has ever used a dating app knows that someone who looked reasonable in a picture often is anything but, once you meet in person.

@NiceGerbil

And to add

'Honestly, there's nothing inherently wrong with raising your kid as cis'

Where that means being married off as a child, raped, and suffering massive physical damage due to being a child yourself.

Then I'd say there's a huge amount wrong with it.

Well it literally doesn't mean that, so...

@2021ismyyear

Twitter is full of people that are prepared to defend trans rights at any cost. I’ve seen some hideous things written about people that believe otherwise. The insults against jk Rowling were hard to read. We saw it the other day when maya won her appeal case. People over ran social media with insults against “TERFS” etc.

I assume these people would have zero issue dating a trans person in that case? If trans women are women and sex doesn’t matter and it’s widely accepted that you can switch gender, then will those people start dating trans people? Will we see more women dating trans men for example? Will tinder do away with any search filters?

If not… why?

Heterosexual cis people do date heterosexual trans people and queer cis people date queer trans people. I support lots of rights for all sorts of people but it doesn't automatically mean I want to date them. It means I respect them and the people they choose to date.

Pretty sure trans people are not falling over themselves to be dated by some cis people.

Sure lots of heterosexual transwomen may date heterosexual women and heterosexual transmen date lesbian women. So what?

Heterosexual cis people do date heterosexual trans people and queer cis people date queer trans people.

Some do, just not that many of them, according to the (pro-gender identity ideology) research I posted. And people who date members of the opposite sex are bisexual. It's ok to be bi.