Question re relationships with trans people

[2021ismyyear]

Twitter is full of people that are prepared to defend trans rights at any cost. I’ve seen some hideous things written about people that believe otherwise. The insults against jk Rowling were hard to read. We saw it the other day when maya won her appeal case. People over ran social media with insults against “TERFS” etc.

I assume these people would have zero issue dating a trans person in that case? If trans women are women and sex doesn’t matter and it’s widely accepted that you can switch gender, then will those people start dating trans people? Will we see more women dating trans men for example? Will tinder do away with any search filters?

If not… why?

Ugh. My phone cracked and I'm hitting the send button too soon.
My last post in bold is a quote from CuriousPanda

Ffs

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/our-statement-sex-and-gender-reassignment-legal-protections-and-language

A woman is an adult human female by sex

It is also a gender identity someone CAN choose

Separate under the equality act.

@Delphinium20

I don't want to repeat myself, lol. The very label of "woman" is gender

I know you all are sick of this, but just one more time

@CuriousPanda will you please share your definition of gender. And then please share your definition of woman. Because they appear quite different than mine.

Mine:

Woman: grown up human female
Gender: the stereotypical behavior, cultural and psychological traits associated with the sexes.

You won't listen to me, so have your precious UK law speak for me

1. Definitions and differences

The UK government defines sex as:
• referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions
• generally male or female
• something that is assigned at birth

The UK government defines gender as:
• a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
• where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

So, woman/ man is an objective description of biological sex. Gender is a set of harmful and offensive stereotypes that have been used to repress women for hundreds of years and we're meant to now accept just because they give some people a warm fuzzy feeling.

Nope.

'And even that's not universal, since in plenty indigenous cultures, having a penis didn't necessarily mean being a "man" at all.'

You seem to be very wed to gendered expectations.

I get that you're using the words man woman boy girl to mean sex role. I mean that's not what they've meant until recently but going with that.

You claim that some 'indigenous cultures' do not think having a penis means being a 'man'.

Given your definition of man is sex role enforced on males. Then if in a society the sex role for male is not how you see that sex role. It makes no odds. In that society the sex role for males (men) is the norm for that society. They are men. Just you understand sex roles to mean different things to what they do.

As an aside. Indigenous means originally from that land/ area. I don't know what you have in your head when you say 'indigenous' but it includes an awful lot of people.

EG in Europe

'Ethnic Europeans are indigenous to the region, having lived there for millennia. However, the UN recognizes very few indigenous populations of Europe, confined to the far north and far east of the continent.

Notable indigenous minority populations in Europe that are recognized by the UN include the Finno-Ugric Nenets, Samoyed, and Komi peoples of northern Russia; Circassians of southern Russia and the North Caucasus; Crimean Tatars of Crimea in Ukraine; Sámi peoples of northern Norway, Sweden, and Finland and northwestern Russia (in an area also referred to as Sápmi); Basques of Basque Country, Spain and southern France; and the Sorbian people of Germany and Poland.[85]'

It wasn't convenient, nobody is denying you can identify as a woman.

But you can also actually BE ONE BY SEX

@chickenyhead

Ffs

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/our-statement-sex-and-gender-reassignment-legal-protections-and-language

A woman is an adult human female by sex

It is also a gender identity someone CAN choose

Separate under the equality act.

No, woman is a gender identity, as defined by UK law, a.k.a. the divine power over the English language if the way you've been using it is any indication.

@chickenyhead

It wasn't convenient, nobody is denying you can identify as a woman.

But you can also actually BE ONE BY SEX

Nothing about the UK definition of sex mentions "man" or "woman" once. These gender identities are only mentioned under gender.

Can I have some examples of the 'indigenous cultures' where having a penis (or a vulva) does not have any set of cultural norms around their sex role?

Sounds really interesting TBH.

At the same time, a trans person is protected from sex discrimination on the basis of their legal sex. This means that a trans woman who does not hold a GRC and is therefore legally male would be treated as male for the purposes of the sex discrimination provisions, and a trans woman with a GRC would be treated as female. The sex discrimination exceptions in the Equality Act therefore apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC.

What exactly are these feminine "behaviours" or "feelings"? We'd all love to know.

My daughter will not grow up thinking she has to like makeup or certain clothes or certaim hobbies or sports or behave a certain why to fit to weird ideas of female. The only thing that makes her female is her biology, and she'll have to live with all thaz entails physically and in terms of societal discrimination. She doesn't need people like you pushing ridiculous outdated and offensive stereotypes of "femininity" on her on top of that. She will be female no matter how she talks or dresses or speaks or whatever hobbies or jobs she has.

@CuriousPanda if 'man' and 'woman' refer to gender, not sex, can you give a brief description of the characteristics of someone with a 'man' gender and someone with a 'woman' gender?

I'd really like to get into the broader thrust of panda's arguments rather than getting into the finer detail.

There have been many arguments and assertions that are very bold and I think it would be informative to get a grasp on those before getting into more detail. I keep losing posts so will see if I can remember the main things.

The UK equality act of 2010 says that a woman is a female of any age.
Therefore it is a sex term. As female is a sex term, woman must be also.

@CuriousPanda it must be because I'm an American, then, cause this confusion is not a result of my precious law. I did hope that sharing the English language would suffice.

How do you distinguish then between adult human females and child human females in your English-speaking country? What words do you use? And what words do you use to distinguish between human females and bovine females? Or horse females and human females?

@NiceGerbil

Can I have some examples of the 'indigenous cultures' where having a penis (or a vulva) does not have any set of cultural norms around their sex role?

Sounds really interesting TBH.

Not sure how much you'll get out of this, but here's what I'd consider an interesting read: www.e-ir.info/2019/08/20/indigenous-sexualities-resisting-conquest-and-translation/

Gay rights movements in the past and now were always about changing laws/ fighting discrimination around same gender attraction.
Never anything to do with sorry to be blunt. Males who had sex with other males. (The laws etc through history seem to be much more concerned with this than females with females).

[quote Delphinium20]@CuriousPanda it must be because I'm an American, then, cause this confusion is not a result of my precious law. I did hope that sharing the English language would suffice.

How do you distinguish then between adult human females and child human females in your English-speaking country? What words do you use? And what words do you use to distinguish between human females and bovine females? Or horse females and human females?[/quote]
Honestly, there's nothing inherently wrong with raising your kid as cis (or as you would call it, use the "sexed" labels) until the kid mentions anything otherwise.

The point is to be flexible, to let kids express themselves, and that includes letting them explore their identity.

The term same sex attraction (I think it was?) was never referenced in any way before 2015.

Same sex attraction is a phrase that means something different (in a sinister way) to the terms homosexuality, lesbian, gay man, bisexual.

The point is to be flexible, to let kids express themselves, and that includes letting them explore their identity

I don't mind kids being creatives and expressing themselves-in fact, I encourage them to bust through stereotypes associated with their sex, but I also encourage them to use shared language that is clear and concise, and they know there are only 2 sexes.

Sadly, I know too many trans kids who have taken the search for identity to a dangerous place that puts their physical health at risk. I won't let my kids get tattoos, boob jobs, cosmetic surgery or piercings either as any permanent body modification decisions should be made when they are adults.

Sexual attraction in humans is based on external appearance. it was confirmed this meant sexed bodies. As sexed bodies can be altered to be indistinguishable from the body of the opposite sex, the concept of attraction to one or the other, or both sexes, is rendered void.

Note.
Very few people in the world have access to or can afford those surgeries etc.
Even the best surgery means a superficial / cosmetic likeness. male and female sex organs are complex organs. they cannot be replicated with exactly the same function.

'Not sure how much you'll get out of this, but here's what I'd consider an interesting read:
www.e-ir.info/2019/08/20/indigenous-sexualities-resisting-conquest-and-translation/'

I read the (long!) summary.

It doesn't say anything to support your claim that there were no sex roles.

The sex roles and acceptable sexualities were alien to European colonists.

If you take it to mean that they had no concept of 'man' or 'woman' from a social point of view then you are demonstrating that same thought process.

That because the social roles are incomprehensible to you, include aspects that seem fixed to the 'wrong' gender role, they didn't exist at all.

Really interesting I will read on.

'Honestly, there's nothing inherently wrong with raising your kid as cis'

I'm a feminist.

I have strongly opposed enforcement of sex role on anyone, all my life.

As a child, really young. I noticed the way really odd things were pressed on me. I was supposed to be pleased when called pretty. I was not supposed to enjoy science. Etc etc.

My deep discomfort with the sex role so constantly forced on me confused me. I couldn't understand it. Why would i be pleased at being called pretty? I look how I look so what. Why aren't you asking what I like and then coming and looking at my space drawings?

That's why I'm a feminist. I have always loathed the narrow sex roles everyone is forced into.

With every post you manage to really put your foot in it with another historically oppressed group.

So far

The ongoing fight for gay rights

The statement that women like me are somehow causing things like men gang raping and murdering lesbians thousands of miles away

The to me really shitty suggestion that women who are concerned about the impact of self ID, like me, are really into the oppressive sex roles imposed by society. Which around the world include things like FGM, 'honour' murders, raped women being imprisoned for 'adultery' etc etc

And that some 'indigenous cultures' have zero sex roles for male/ female people.

May have missed some.

And to add

'Honestly, there's nothing inherently wrong with raising your kid as cis'

Where that means being married off as a child, raped, and suffering massive physical damage due to being a child yourself.

Then I'd say there's a huge amount wrong with it.