Question re relationships with trans people

[2021ismyyear]

Twitter is full of people that are prepared to defend trans rights at any cost. I’ve seen some hideous things written about people that believe otherwise. The insults against jk Rowling were hard to read. We saw it the other day when maya won her appeal case. People over ran social media with insults against “TERFS” etc.

I assume these people would have zero issue dating a trans person in that case? If trans women are women and sex doesn’t matter and it’s widely accepted that you can switch gender, then will those people start dating trans people? Will we see more women dating trans men for example? Will tinder do away with any search filters?

If not… why?

@OldCrone

Do you insist on using gendered terms like "woman", "she", "man", "he"?

Those terms refer to sex not gender.

Because all these labels are socially imposed. And you're part of the movement trying to socially impose unwanted labels on trans people

And yet here you are, imposing your unwanted 'cis' label on people who don't identify as 'cis'.

Ah, there you go, trying to pretend socially imposed labels are somehow not socially imposed because you call them "sex".

No, those thing are gender labels and you are socially imposing these labels on trans people.

You need to read the actual law.

It is sex. Not gender.

They are separate.

No point arguing with you, you don't know enough to hold your own.

Fyi I have been pretty careful to use male female in my posts.

'Not being as violent as some other bigots doesn't mean you're not a bigot or not complicit in violent bigotry.'

The fact that I believe (know) that around the world and through history.

Laws against homosexual acts (almost always focusing on gay men).

Are and were based on outrage at male people engaging in sexual activity.

Makes me complicit in violent bigotry that leads to things like. Out lesbians in South Africa being gang raped and murdered? Or gay men in Jamaica being beaten to death?

As I said earlier. That's a very strong position to take.

@CiaoForNiao

What the actual do you mean by "socially imposed"? You said it earlier. It didn't make sense then and it doesn't make sense now.

Man and woman are the terms for adult human males and females respectively. He and she are the pronouns for those people. That's all.

No, that's not "all". The only reason things are that way is because that's how society codified it. The labels were created by humans, they didn't come coded into our DNA. And society has just as much power to change how these labels are used.

The moment you choose to call a child with a penis a "boy", you are assigning a gender category.

No. A child with a penis is called a boy because he is male. A sex category.

But if sex categories don't exist, as you seem to be saying, then what are trans people transitioning from or to? Surely denying the existence of sex means that trans people don't exist. Are you denying the existence of trans people?

See

Educate yourself and stop spreading misinformation

@OldCrone

The moment you choose to call a child with a penis a "boy", you are assigning a gender category.

No. A child with a penis is called a boy because he is male. A sex category.

But if sex categories don't exist, as you seem to be saying, then what are trans people transitioning from or to? Surely denying the existence of sex means that trans people don't exist. Are you denying the existence of trans people?

No, a child with a penis is labeled a boy because that's the gender category society has assigned to adolescent human beings that have a penis.

And even that's not universal, since in plenty indigenous cultures, having a penis didn't necessarily mean being a "man" at all.

What rights does a male man have that a male woman doesn't?

What rights does a female woman have that a female man doesn't?

Would help level set for all if you could answer this.

'All labels are made-up.'

We're getting into philosophy 'if a tree falls in the woods' stuff here surely.

Yes labels are all made up. The words we use for eg tree, water, sun. Could just as easily be other words. And in other languages are other words.

Some things are not yet labelled- they have not been given words yet.

They still exist.

A cat is a cat is a cat and has been for millennia irrespective of whether a human had given it a word. And it's still a cat if it's called a different word in other languages.

Male and female in mammals is just a constant basic thing. For zebras or mice or humans.

Before humans developed language they knew the difference between male and female. How could they not?

The labels were created by humans, they didn't come coded into our DNA.

Well duh. We created all the words. And the words woman and man refer to adult human females and adult human men. The fact that humans created the words isn't proof that they refer to gender any more than the fact that we invented the word "table" actually means a table is a river.

Words, as we invented them, have meanings.
Woman = adult human female.
Female = of the sex class that produces large gametes.
Homosexual = same sex attracted.

'The labels were created by humans, they didn't come coded into our DNA. '

I think, in fact I'm sure. That sex is pretty much coded into our DNA

It's Owen Jones syndrome, OP. Women should accept any person who wants to have sex with them, how dare they think otherwise?! But would he date a trans-man? Nope. He said it was homophobic for a journalist to put that question to him as a gay man, even one publicly pushing trans ideology, yet he demands that lesbians should date trans-women of be "transphobic".

Weird that a gay man doesn't understand the definition of "gay".

Don't see many men dating trans-women either. Mostly they seem to be trying to attend lesbian groups. 🙄

The TW I know in relationships are the exception to their partner's usual sexual orientation.

I.e. one is with a previously gay male who is still very much in the gay male scene. Another is with a normally straight woman - in that case the partner was a straight woman one day and a lesbian the next without any say in the matter, thanks to the TW 'outing' themselves.

Wish I hadn't walked in on this thread.

Off now because I find it difficult to communicate calmly when I realise people can just make up the rules, rather than read the fucking law.

FFS

@chickenyhead

See

All of this literally agrees with what I've been saying. Sex referes to physical characteristics, and "woman" and "man are part of gender, not sex.

i.imgur.com/gXysdQQ.png

'All labels are made-up.'

We're getting into philosophy 'if a tree falls in the woods' stuff here surely.

Indeed. I mean all words are "made up".

It's all a bit Schrodinger's penis for my liking.

Fucking hell

@CuriousPanda nice word salad but none of us are hungry at this time of night. And it's been a cold day so we'd need something more substantial and enticing to make us hungry I'm afraid.

How about you explain to us what gender is?

@chickenyhead

Wish I hadn't walked in on this thread.

Off now because I find it difficult to communicate calmly when I realise people can just make up the rules, rather than read the fucking law.

FFS

The law literally agrees with me.

^2. Definitions and differences
The UK government defines sex as:
• referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions
• generally male or female
• something that is assigned at birth

The UK government defines gender as:
• a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
• where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman^

I don't want to repeat myself, lol. The very label of "woman" is gender

I know you all are sick of this, but just one more time

@CuriousPanda will you please share your definition of gender. And then please share your definition of woman. Because they appear quite different than mine.

Mine:

Woman: grown up human female
Gender: the stereotypical behavior, cultural and psychological traits associated with the sexes.

I don't want to repeat myself, lol. The very label of "woman" is gender

@chickenyhead

See

You know, it's quite convenient how you cut out the second part of the definition of gender

The UK government defines gender as:
• a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
• where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21#definitions-and-differences