A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

I imagine if one of the leaders sons were there, they wouldn’t be in a guides uniform.

I’d explain to your daughter that guides include girls and also boys who would prefer to be thought of as girls / trans girls / however you want to phrase it. So explain that it is entirely possible that there are males there, but that they want to be considered “girls”.

Oh come on. I’m very sorry for focussing on the ‘dude’ part and not the ‘other’ part when discussing it briefly with DD on the car journey home. I’ll be sure to check with her whether there were any ‘other’ ‘dudes’ when she gets home from school.

Despite their policy it's still statistically very unlikely there will be a child who is trans in your child's unit.

It's may be unlikely in a random person's unit, but when it happens to someone, it happens. This is like insisting that someone didn't win the lottery by telling them how unlikely it was that they won the lottery. Yet every week it happens to someone.

Given the number of people using Mumsnet in the country, and the policy of guides, and the increase in trans-identifying children, it's improbable that no-one would ever encounter this and post to Mumsnet about it.

Girl Guiding is a self described single sex organisation, and always has been. Let's just be clear here. In allowing boys who identify as girls enter Girl Guiding, GGUK's policy does break the law, under the Equality Act, but it's because they are discriminating against certain boys.

There is no such thing as a "transgirl" (i.e., an under 18) in law. Nobody without a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) is entitled to access single sex spaces (enshrined under the Equality Act). Nobody under the age of 18 can hold a GRC. A boy under the age of 18 who identifies as a girl is exactly the same legally as a boy who identifies as a boy.

Therefore, in allowing some boys (biological boys whose gender identity is girl) to come into girl guiding, but not other boys (biological boys whose gender identity is boy), they are directly discriminating against the latter. This is a clear breach of the Equality Act.

GGUK has been applying "Stonewall Law" which is their wrongful interpretation of the law.

This leaves us with massive issues in terms of safeguarding and indirect discrimination against girls from certain backgrounds (e.g., any girl that comes from a religion that does not allow her to mix with male bodied persons outside of her family unit). The dignity of girls and their boundaries has been thrown out the window, and gas lighting (telling them to believe someone is a girl, when all their senses tell them otherwise) and "kindness" over and above their own well being and safety has been imposed. Guide Leaders must treat a "transgirl" the same as a biological girl, so they must be allowed to share dorms, tents, toilets, showers etc. Parents of biological girls and the girls themselves are not afforded informed consent in this regard. Without your knowledge or consent, your 10-14 year old Guide may be sharing a tent with a biological (and biologically intact) boy of the same age, and all the hormonal urges that boy may be experiencing. This is safeguarding 101. Conversely, a female Guide leader who needs to take her own biological son on an overnight, because of no alternative childcare, is not allowed to share a tent with her own son.

As PP have said, Scouts is a completely separate organisation with a separate governing body. They have not been single sex for years, as a result of falling uptake, but also as a result of lack of male volunteer staff. Their overnight policies and safeguarding is much more transparent (no pun intended), because they are not labouring under a "fiction" that they are a single sex entity.

When I was in guides, 60 years ago, one of the leaders sons aged 10 or 11, attended regularly as she had no child care, father worked irregular hours, he also accompanied us on camps for a week, and shared a tent with his sisters, never any problem to us or him.

Well I doubt anyone would think that was an issue. It was known he was male, and he shared space with his family. A bit different to a boy wearing a guide uniform and saying they are a girl, and expecting to sleep / shower / use toilets / with girls without consent from either them, or their parents.

But it’s at odds with your shock and confusion at their being a dude at all. You said she didn’t know what she meant by “dude” but surely you’d be saying “what do you mean, ‘other dude’? So there’s boys (plural) there?”

Unless she refers to both girls and boys as dudes, in which case you wouldn’t have picked her up on that wording.

It's a shame they don't just make all of them unisex.

I didn't realise that Guides and Scouts had different criteria, ie girls could join Scouts but boys couldn't join Guides. It does seem unfair.

Well I doubt anyone would think that was an issue. It was known he was male, and he shared space with his family.

Quite. The big problem here is not that it's mixed-sex but that people are pretending it's not mixed-sex, and not having normal mixed-sex arrangements and safeguards.

(The loss of a single-sex option is a problem, but it's second order after the big one).

Yes Scouts are mixed sex and their residential and safeguarding policies will reflect that. However, GG are a single sex organisation and their policies do not take into account that a leader or a guide is of the opposite sex. Therefore , it should be assumed that any male guide who identifies as a girl will be sleeping, changing etc next to the female guides

Dude is one of those words, like guy. She says ‘hey guys’ to her (female) friends on house party, but she wouldn’t refer to one of them as a ‘guy’.

She uses ‘ma dude’ when talking to someone, but hasn’t previously referred to any particular person as a ‘dude’.

So when she said ‘this other dude’ I was trying to work out whether it was a figure of speech or an actual ‘dude’. The ‘other’ part was what confused me about whether it was an ‘other’ person, not part of the group etc.

When talking about a mixed sex group I think it would be fairly natural to say, well we were doing this, then this other dude did that, without it being specific about there being multiple ‘dudes’.

@AlwaysLatte

It's a shame they don't just make all of them unisex.

Well GG effectively is mixed sex but they pretend they aren't. Mixed sex spaces will exclude females who, for various reasons, can not use mixed sex facilities. Redapplewreath has already pointed this out on this thread.

It's a shame they don't just make all of them unisex.

Why? I think it's good for males and females to have groups and spaces of their own.

One of my children goes to beavers and there are at least 3 girls in his troupe

I didn't realise that Guides and Scouts had different criteria, ie girls could join Scouts but boys couldn't join Guides. It does seem unfair

The idea girls should miss out on a single sex spaces becuase boys and men didn't want to attend or run theirs seems an incredibly immature attitude to have tbh

I think single sex spaces can be a relief. DS plays a lot of football. There are almost never girls there, none in the teams and only occasionally a token one at training. I wonder if a lot of outdoorsy boys do sports instead of Cubs/Scouts?

@Redapplewreath

At the end of the day this is a child. Can you imagine how this poor kid would feel if she is actually a girl being asked to prove it.

But this is it, isn't it?

It used to be that if something advertised as female only, you'd know the child was female regardless of any choices over presentation or name or anything else.

The issue is that parents can no longer be certain, and there is no honesty or transparency or way to tell that everyone present is in fact female. Which has implications for parents and the decisions they are prepared to make for their children, particularly around safeguarding.

The OP has in no way implied any lack of care for this child or a desire to make this child uncomfortable. She's concerned about her own child within the known fact that she cannot trust the system, get clear information, rely on proper safeguarding, and can not now allow the child to go on residentials. It's going to be an increasing problem for many parents of female children, and the female children will lose opportunities because of it.

This is it.

Neither the OP, nor anyone else speculating on here can trust the system.

Whether there is a boy in the group or not is all conjecture. Sharing toilets with the girls, sharing accommodation on overnight trips, and forcing all the girls to lie about their sex.

And not only that, everyone is worried about asking. Some people think it's rude to ask, some people think it doesn't matter, some people think it's discriminatory!

It's mad.

Girl Guides is advertising itself as being for the female sex. It isn't.

Making girls think that a boy is a girl, making them say it, or making them and their parents too afraid to ask, is a massive safeguarding issue.

And quite apart from anything else, it's advocating and endorsing sexism up the bloody wazoo.

Modern Girl Guides was noted for its promotion of girls. For its lack of sexism. Now it's saying that if a boy displays sexist stereotypes, then they must be a girl. Because that's what girls do?

It's incoherent idealism and directly undermines the reason for having a single sex group for girls.

And what difference does it make if the OP is trying to elicit quotes?

This is a scenario that the girl guides are fully behind. And if you don't agree you can fuck off apparently.

@queenMab99

When I was in guides, 60 years ago, one of the leaders sons aged 10 or 11, attended regularly as she had no child care, father worked irregular hours, he also accompanied us on camps for a week, and shared a tent with his sisters, never any problem to us or him.

Not really surprising that a lot has changed in 60 years, is it?

No leader's male child would be allowed to share a tent with their female sibling or their own mother under today's policies. Direct quote from GGUK's overnight policy:

If boys, or volunteers who are men, are present there must be separate sleeping and bathroom facilities for them.

@AlwaysLatte

I didn't realise that Guides and Scouts had different criteria, ie girls could join Scouts but boys couldn't join Guides. It does seem unfair.

It not being the same doesn't necessarily mean it's unfair.

There is lots of documented evidence to show that boys thrive in a mixed sex environment. Whereas girls thrive in a single sex environment.

Sexism is massively reduced for girls in a single sex environment. Sexism for boys and girls is not symmetrical, in any way, shape or form. Girls deserve to be in environment where there is no sexism. And, currently, one of the ways to do that is to make it single sex.

@queenMab99

When I was in guides, 60 years ago, one of the leaders sons aged 10 or 11, attended regularly as she had no child care, father worked irregular hours, he also accompanied us on camps for a week, and shared a tent with his sisters, never any problem to us or him.

Not really surprising that a lot has changed in 60 years, is it?

No leader's male child would be allowed to share a tent with their female sibling or their own mother under today's policies. Direct quote from GGUK's overnight policy:

If boys, or volunteers who are men, are present there must be separate sleeping and bathroom facilities for them.

@Wineat5isfine

One of my children goes to beavers and there are at least 3 girls in his troupe

Scouting UK is a mixed-sex organisation and segregates toilets, showers and accommodation based upon sex. My dad was a cub leader, on one occasion there was only one girl attending a camp so to avoid her sleeping on her own, her sister (who'd moved up to Scouts) joined in for the overnights. What they didn't do was have boys and girls sharing a tent. Even though everyone present was only 8-10

Even if this was a trans child, the leader would not be allowed to discuss, confirm or deny.

It might be.

It might not be - plenty of girls have short hair, plenty of boys have long hair, and at guides they're all in the same clothes.

By the way, residential trips are already possible again with current rules. Many units are planning to camp this summer, don't assume it's not happening.

So you’re kid can’t remember their name but they ‘know’ they are boy based on what exactly?

Also those of you referring to this child as ‘it’ should be ashamed of yourselves.

It makes 0 difference to you or your life but you’re making this unknown kids existence all about you

At what point do you seriously imagine this child poses any danger to your child?

What endlessly convoluted scenario do you imagine is going to happen that makes this about you in any way?

You’re clear on guides policy

Send your child or don’t but don’t come stamping around causing aggro for this child based on your childs interpretation

Both myself and my daughter are cis and were regularly mis gendered by other children for not conforming to society’s expectation of gender. Your child is not omnipotent and could be... mistaken...

@coffeeandjuice

Loads of girls go to Scouts and Cubs. You're not allowed to run exclusively "girl" or "boy" clubs anymore as it's discrimination. It probably is a boy.

Not true. The Guides are allowed to be single sex. Check the Equality Act.