A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

@coffeeandjuice

Loads of girls go to Scouts and Cubs. You're not allowed to run exclusively "girl" or "boy" clubs anymore as it's discrimination. It probably is a boy.

Guides is girls only, it's cubs and scouts that went co ed

She only said maybe it was a girl when I said guides was for girls only. Until then, and when I double checked what she had thought, she was clear it was a boy.

I think she probably agreed it was a girl because of your surprise but her instinct was that it was a boy.
I agree with Justfor on how to handle residential, if it’s not going to be acknowledged then provision might not be made.

@Etorih

Therefore it's not rocket science to say that it's much more likely this child you know nothing about is more likely to actually be a girl.

With the new policies in place they are just as likely to be a boy if they look, act, and sound like one. Can't you tell the difference between males and females? I bet you can. Even if you try to pretend otherwise.

They are not "just as likely" to be a boy. What percentage of kids in that young age group do you imagine is made up of trans girls? It's daft (and needless) to make assumptions either way based on one kid meeting another, once.

I think there's a difference between tackling the systemic marginalisation of women's rights in favour of trans rights, and trying to get private/medical information on a child before there is any 'problem' to be solved.

Exactly. I've met some children who do look quite androgenous and it wasn't clear initially if they were male or female especially before puberty kicked in. At the end of the day this is a child. Can you imagine how this poor kid would feel if she is actually a girl being asked to prove it.

@4PawsGood

You are allowed to have women only groups. But including men who identify as women in that.

Think about women only gyms, sessions at swimming, they all exist @coffeeandjuice

This isn’t true. Single sex exemptions are perfectly acceptable.

When I was 8 I joined Brownies and thought one of the girls was a boy because she had short hair and was boisterous. She was absolutely a girl and that has never changed.

Even if the child is a boy, as others have posted, I wouldn't worry about it unless the issue of a residential comes up.

You can’t assume this person is Trans and/or a boy
However, it is possible and pretending otherwise to your DD is wrong. I would explain that some people prefer to present in a way that’s seen as traditionally different to their sex and if they prefer you to say She then it’s polite too.
If it turns out this person IS in fact Male (no idea how you would know for sure unless it’s very obvious) then I would have concerns about Residentials

I think Brownies age group is vastly less pertinent than the 11-14 age group for Guides when it comes to residential. I might have a 7 year old girl and boy share a tent but I would feel very different about a 14 year old girl and a boy or an 11 year old girl with a 14 year old boy.

It could be something as simple as one of the leaders/helpers had to take their son along that evening 🤷🏼‍♀️

At the end of the day this is a child. Can you imagine how this poor kid would feel if she is actually a girl being asked to prove it.

But this is it, isn't it?

It used to be that if something advertised as female only, you'd know the child was female regardless of any choices over presentation or name or anything else.

The issue is that parents can no longer be certain, and there is no honesty or transparency or way to tell that everyone present is in fact female. Which has implications for parents and the decisions they are prepared to make for their children, particularly around safeguarding.

The OP has in no way implied any lack of care for this child or a desire to make this child uncomfortable. She's concerned about her own child within the known fact that she cannot trust the system, get clear information, rely on proper safeguarding, and can not now allow the child to go on residentials. It's going to be an increasing problem for many parents of female children, and the female children will lose opportunities because of it.

Katerurn
It’ll probably end up being exactly that after all this theorising!!

@Katerurn

It could be something as simple as one of the leaders/helpers had to take their son along that evening 🤷🏼‍♀️

It could well be.

After all the most obvious answer is normally the right one. In this instance I would image the child being a leaders son or being a girl were much more likely so they would be the most obvious.

I'm guessing your DD has correctly got the sex of this other child, but if they are identifying as female they will be allowed to join Guides.
The Leader will not be allowed to confirm this to you.
Basically Guides has traditionally been a single sex organisation. This is allowed in law. Scouts used to be but made a choice to become mixed sex. What any thinks about that is up to them, but those are the facts.
Scouts therefore is prepared for both sexes to be present and have rules around that. I'm not familiar in detail with their trans inclusion but I daresay there will be similarities with Guides.
Guides has now decided it's somehow both a single sex and a single gender organisation. Girls IDing as boys can stay and boys IDing as girls can join. Boys just being boys are not allowed to join.
Guides are being challenged in court soon by a former Leader over some of their policies. There are long threads on this elsewhere on MN.
As for your DD OP, if she enjoys Guides then she should still attend.
You may have concerns around residential sleepovers but I'm sure Leaders would be sensitive to any concerns you might have without broaching confidentiality.

@AlwaysLatte

It doesn't sound like an issue to me. There were girls in my son's Cubs pack 🤷‍♀️

Were they allowed in because Cubs welcomes both boys and girls, or purely because the girls identified as boys?

Surely you can see that these are different situations?

At the end of the day this is a child. Can you imagine how this poor kid would feel if she is actually a girl being asked to prove it.

This is akin to cute 8 year olds being wheeled out by the bbc when women object to fully intact males demanding the right to strip off in front of teenage girls. And then condemning any other guest who dares to tell the child that fthwr Christmas doesn't exist.

The issue is that parents can no longer be certain, and there is no honesty or transparency or way to tell that everyone present is in fact female.

Well yes and whilst I don't support the veiw girl guiding have taken on this issue that doesn't detract form the fact that there are not lots of units up and down the country with trans children in them.

Despite their policy it's still statistically very unlikely there will be a child who is trans in your child's unit.

If your child is of GG age surely there's no need for the softly softly approach to this, unless she's been under a rock she knows about trans people.

@Bryonyshcmyony yes that’s my point, it does suggest there was more than one dude. But the OP completely ignored the reference to “the other” both in her response to her DD and this thread.

They are not "just as likely" to be a boy. What percentage of kids in that young age group do you imagine is made up of trans girls? It's daft (and needless) to make assumptions either way based on one kid meeting another, once.

Don't be silly. There's trans kids in many schools now. There's at least two transgirls in my daughter's year alongside the hugely popular non binary and transboy status.
A transgirl is likely to want to go to the guides. And they are accepted into the guides. If the ops daughter is able to identify boys in the rest of her life what makes you think she can't in this space as well.
The gaslighting from some people with nefarious reasons is appalling. Shameful. Just stop.

When I was in guides, 60 years ago, one of the leaders sons aged 10 or 11, attended regularly as she had no child care, father worked irregular hours, he also accompanied us on camps for a week, and shared a tent with his sisters, never any problem to us or him.

Given that a large part of the appeal of Guides is that (ironically) it's not about stereotyped behaviours/appearance, it's a very friendly space for non conforming girls. There will be many Guides who ID as trans or NB.

It seems sometimes that as we progress in some ways , in other ways we go backwards, all this speculation as to whether there was a BOY at guides, and if he could be trans.