A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

@AlwaysLatte

It doesn't sound like an issue to me. There were girls in my son's Cubs pack 🤷‍♀️

But presumably you knew that Scouts was a mixed sex organisation?

OP thinks (oh the naivety...) that Guides is single-sex. Hence the confusion at her dd saying there was a boy there.

I don't know how old the dd is, but I'd assume old enough to correctly identify someone male? (Interestingly females are able to correctly sex people at a very young age, far more so than males can.) So dont gaslight her and say she must be mistaken. Boundaries for children are a good thing.

It if boys don't want that then it is fair

They are allowed it
But the organisation didn't feel it necessary/enough boys wanted that

I'm not trying to wind anyone up but I don't think it's fair on boys not to have the same opportunities.

They did have the same opportunities. For years. But it turns out not enough boys were interested in it, to keep it financially viable.

So they were looking at closing it all down, until they decided they might be able to keep it going if they invited girls.

It was either close, or become mixed sex. It wasn't a question of fairness.

Scouting included girls as an alternative to closing down. They enforce single sex spaces on camps so my son (scout) and daughter (cub) are assured of single sex spaces when they need them.
Guides do not offer the same safety, privacy and dignity to the girls in their care, despite their professed concern for girls’ empowerment.

@MrsWooster

Scouting included girls as an alternative to closing down. They enforce single sex spaces on camps so my son (scout) and daughter (cub) are assured of single sex spaces when they need them. Guides do not offer the same safety, privacy and dignity to the girls in their care, despite their professed concern for girls’ empowerment.

What is scouts policy on trans boys/girls and single sex camps?

I don't know why you would ask anything, especially at this point, OP. Let your daughter get to know the other girls.

Just scouts. I'm not trying to wind anyone up but I don't think it's fair on boys not to have the same opportunities

Maybe not but that isn't the issue. If it was openly mixed sex then there would be clear guidelines in place for keeping boys and girls safe. Separate toilets / showers / sleeping areas.

When a service is single sex but accepts boys who identify as girls, it effectively becomes a mixed sex service, but with none of the same safeguards in place. So the boy identifying as a girls uses the facilities alongside the girls: showers, sleeping areas etc. But the parents aren't even told about it so they can't make an informed decision about it.

Would you be happy with the boys sharing toilets / showers / sleeping areas with the girls and you, as a parent, don't have the right to know?

And before anyone jumps on the bigot bandwagon, a trans girl does not have a GRC, they are not legally allowed to take puberty blockers, and they are, entirely male.

Like other posters I'm really confused as to why your first thought is this child is a boy?

It doesn't actually sound like your daughter has anywhere near enough information to come to this conclusion especially as she doesn't even know their name and only met them very briefly. Unless they actually told her they were a boy then it seems a huge leap to make.

It's surely much more likely they are actually female.

I was aware of the guides policy on trans inclusion, I guess I wasn’t expecting to have to consider the reality of it so soon.

If they aren’t allowed to clarify and won’t discuss safeguarding on residentials then I suppose I’ll have to make the call at the time whether I want DD to go on a residential. Easier to say no to that than no to guides in general.

The confusion I didn’t like was my dd’s. I don’t want to have to go along with telling her this child is a girl when she can clearly see they are a boy (if that is the case).

Why is it more likely that they are female?

It doesn't actually sound like your daughter has anywhere near enough information to come to this conclusion especially as she doesn't even know their name and only met them very briefly. Unless they actually told her they were a boy then it seems a huge leap to make

Most kids can tell the difference between boys and girls. Especially in adolescence.

@GreenCrayon

Like other posters I'm really confused as to why your first thought is this child is a boy?

It doesn't actually sound like your daughter has anywhere near enough information to come to this conclusion especially as she doesn't even know their name and only met them very briefly. Unless they actually told her they were a boy then it seems a huge leap to make.

It's surely much more likely they are actually female.

My first thought is that this child is a boy because dd said they were a boy. Why wouldn’t I believe her?

@Hoosi

Why is it more likely that they are female?

Honestly??

Statistically the percentage of children who are attending guides presenting as female is significantly smaller than the amount of girls attending guides.

Therefore it's not rocket science to say that it's much more likely this child you know nothing about is more likely to actually be a girl.

My mother was a brown owl for years and I volunteered for a little while to cover a gap. Now and then I would have to take my son who was a bit younger than the brownies and would generally sit with a snack but always wanted to "join in" when crafts came out. I know guides are older but could it be a similar situation where a boy couldn't be left at home but no one wanted to let the girls down?

Denying that girls can't tell the difference between males and females is a huge red flag. This constant drip drip of requiring them to shut up and ignore their boundaries is horrendously abusive.

I made the decision that my dd just won't do residentials with guides. She does plenty of others which are mixed sex but it's upfront and managed appropriately.

There's been a few threads regarding GG on this board which may be worth a read OP. This one is one of the more recent ones.

Girl guiding www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4247374-girl-guiding

@KatieAlcock is a former guide who was expelled for raising safeguarding issues.

Therefore it's not rocket science to say that it's much more likely this child you know nothing about is more likely to actually be a girl.

With the new policies in place they are just as likely to be a boy if they look, act, and sound like one. Can't you tell the difference between males and females? I bet you can. Even if you try to pretend otherwise.

@Justforphoto

I made the decision that my dd just won't do residentials with guides. She does plenty of others which are mixed sex but it's upfront and managed appropriately.

Yes, I think that’s what I’m going to go with. Thanks

My first thought is that this child is a boy because dd said they were a boy. Why wouldn’t I believe her?

I'm not saying you shouldn't believe her but you said yourself she doesn't actually know and changed her mind and said maybe it was a girl.

I'm not saying this child is definitely not a boy but merely pointing out it is much more likely they are actually a girl.

Just keep encouraging your daughter to get to know/ chat to people that she wants to get to know, it will become apparent who everybody is over time.
I would think if she is 11 or so then if she thinks he is a boy she is probably right. Children are very straightforward and keen observers of other children at this age so I would be surprised if she is mistaken.
I think as others say it would only become of consequence if there was a residential stay.

@TrainedByCats

Gosh lots of new posters on this thread telling op not to be concerned..

I think there's a difference between tackling the systemic marginalisation of women's rights in favour of trans rights, and trying to get private/medical information on a child before there is any 'problem' to be solved.

@Hoosi

I was aware of the guides policy on trans inclusion, I guess I wasn’t expecting to have to consider the reality of it so soon.

If they aren’t allowed to clarify and won’t discuss safeguarding on residentials then I suppose I’ll have to make the call at the time whether I want DD to go on a residential. Easier to say no to that than no to guides in general.

The confusion I didn’t like was my dd’s. I don’t want to have to go along with telling her this child is a girl when she can clearly see they are a boy (if that is the case).

Quite. And this again is the problem with the lack of transparency and glossing over a female only provision in fact being mixed sex but not named as such.

Parents can no longer assume or trust that it is in fact single sex.

Parents will have to discreetly and quietly withdraw girls from opportunities that they could have had if the facility they had chosen and were paying for was in fact female only as advertised. Some parents will be fine with mixed sex meetings but will not be able to let their daughters go on camps and residentials sadly as they can't trust honesty and sufficient stringency on safeguarding practice. Some parents sadly will have to withdraw their daughters from attending altogether as those children only can attend female only groups, and without that have no access to groups at all.

Sex based losses there. Funnily enough, the same old same old ones too. Natal female people lose opportunities to give natal male people more variety and choice over theirs, even though other mixed sex provisions were available to them.

Could you explain further? Is she saying it was a male who said they were a girl or a female who said they were a boy?

All this confusion, it's almost like definitions matter or something.

I get where you're coming from OP. Haven't got any advice I'm afraid.
This thread has been weird though - all the posters who mention short hair ffs, and the what about the Scouts brigade not to mention the ignorance about the law.