A boy in dd’s Guides Unit

[Hoosi]

DD went for her first session at a Guides unit yesterday. She has been asking to go for weeks, she never went to Brownies but four of her school friends are in this group.

She was telling me about it afterwards and said ‘this other dude…’. I didn’t know what she meant (a man walking his dog in the park? Another child nearby? Gender neutral way of referring to one of the girls in the group? A male volunteer expert helping out for the session?) but it turns out she was referring to one of the other children in the group who she thought was a boy. I said guides was supposed to be girls only and she got confused and thought maybe it was a girl 🙄🙄🙄

So, do I assume this is a trans male child? Do I ask the leader to clarify? I don’t particularly care about the boy being there, I wasn’t after a female only activity for her, it was just because her friends were members. But I don’t like the confusion, and I can see concerns arising in the future if residential trips become possible again.

What would you do?

Did this thread start on another board? Because I've never seen so many posters on here demonstrate such a complete and frightening lack of understanding of basic safeguarding

@HerrenaHarridan

So you’re kid can’t remember their name but they ‘know’ they are boy based on what exactly?

Also those of you referring to this child as ‘it’ should be ashamed of yourselves.

It makes 0 difference to you or your life but you’re making this unknown kids existence all about you

At what point do you seriously imagine this child poses any danger to your child?

What endlessly convoluted scenario do you imagine is going to happen that makes this about you in any way?

You’re clear on guides policy

Send your child or don’t but don’t come stamping around causing aggro for this child based on your childs interpretation

Both myself and my daughter are cis and were regularly mis gendered by other children for not conforming to society’s expectation of gender. Your child is not omnipotent and could be... mistaken...

My son can’t remember the names of everyone in his school year but knows what sex they all are And nowhere has OP stamped around or caused aggro

As for posing a danger probably not but I think parents do have a right to know if/when their child is sharing changing or sleeping facilities with a child of the opposite sex

@HerrenaHarridan

So you’re kid can’t remember their name but they ‘know’ they are boy based on what exactly?

Also those of you referring to this child as ‘it’ should be ashamed of yourselves.

It makes 0 difference to you or your life but you’re making this unknown kids existence all about you

At what point do you seriously imagine this child poses any danger to your child?

What endlessly convoluted scenario do you imagine is going to happen that makes this about you in any way?

You’re clear on guides policy

Send your child or don’t but don’t come stamping around causing aggro for this child based on your childs interpretation

Both myself and my daughter are cis and were regularly mis gendered by other children for not conforming to society’s expectation of gender. Your child is not omnipotent and could be... mistaken...

You might want to read this article about the government's concern over sexual abuse amongst minors. And children trading 'nudes' like football cards.

There is a safeguarding issue in making children ignore the fact that someone of the opposite sex in their tent/shower. Not being allowed to identify the opposite sex in any scenario is a huge safeguarding flag.

Peer on peer abuse is rife. (Even though it's far more likely to be male on female).

Please don't minimise situations, just because you don't understand safeguarding.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/339f6456-de83-11eb-ab4e-c25eb6444929?shareToken=c705600d993af592745dac4b4e06ac7f

@FlyPassed

Did this thread start on another board? Because I've never seen so many posters on here demonstrate such a complete and frightening lack of understanding of basic safeguarding

I was wondering that.

@AlwaysLatte

It's a shame they don't just make all of them unisex.

Yep.

I agree that women's sport and women's refuges and women's toilets should be single sex but can't see anything that wrong with guides and scouts being mixed. I mean, sports clubs are mainly mixed for trainijng (ie dds athletics club) but split into two for competitions which I think is right

@FlyPassed

Did this thread start on another board? Because I've never seen so many posters on here demonstrate such a complete and frightening lack of understanding of basic safeguarding

I understand it all. What I don't understand is why OP jumped to the 'trans' thing in the first place.

Yes me too toastandtea

@Bryonyshcmyony

I agree that women's sport and women's refuges and women's toilets should be single sex but can't see anything that wrong with guides and scouts being mixed. I mean, sports clubs are mainly mixed for trainijng (ie dds athletics club) but split into two for competitions which I think is right

The guides is mixed sex. It just pretends it isn't.

So children and parents who want single sex, think their daughter is in a tent with girls, and it could be mixed sex. Including the adult helpers - all called women, supervising showering and toileting, but could quite easily be male.

This, at exactly the same time that governments are reporting horrendous abuse of girls in schools as young as three.

There is every reason why the parent of a girl might want them to be in a single sex environment.

But that is a separate issue to pretending the guides is single sex, when it isn't.

I have a DD in Guides. One of the things she and her friends most appreciate about it is the lack of boys.
If Guides were properly mixed sex many many girls would leave and many others would not be allowed to come any more.
It's actually a really empowering environment and I am glad for it despite the criticism it's getting one way or another. I'm glad Guides doesn't admit boys. I can see the kind of shit girls have to deal with at school and this feels like an absolute respite from that.

I've been a Guide leader for a long time- in Brownies, Guides and Rangers.

Guiding was always single sex, as were the Scouts. Scouting was suffering a significant drop in numbers and decided to become mixed sex, for both girls and boys. They were open about it, they have leaders of both sexes and plan their safeguarding appropriately (I'm not a Scouter, so no personal experience of their policies).

Guiding quietly changed to "single gender" a couple of years ago- there have been lots of threads about it, and now welcome trans girls. Leaders are not allowed to discuss a child's trans status with other parents including on residential trips, leaders were sacked for discussing the issue

So the child could have been a trans girl- and yes this would be a problem for a lot of parents and leaders for all the reasons discussed in previous threads.

The possible boy could also be the male child of a leader who for whatever reading couldn't be left at home or a Scout or young person doing the service part of a badge or DofE . We have had an explorer Scout do this and one of my Rangers was a helper at Beavers as part of her DofE.

I would suggest the OP just stays on at the start of a meeting or arrives early at pick up and finds out for herself.
If it turns out that the young person is a trans girl, then an informed decision about residentials can be made.
Personally I hate that leaders and parents are being put in this situation- Guiding should remain single sex, as is allowed by law, but as we all know female only spaces are under attack.

If Guides were properly mixed sex many many girls would leave and many others would not be allowed to come any more

Indeed.

And then they would be in direct competition with scouts and cubs.

I wonder if that's why they pretend they are still single sex.

I'm glad Guides doesn't admit boys. I can see the kind of shit girls have to deal with at school and this feels like an absolute respite from that.

Initially, their policy was that if a girl identified as a boy, in other words, was gender nonconforming, she must leave.

They were swiftly informed that this was discriminatory (ironically, as it was excluding on the basis of being trans), and so withdrew that idea.

But, essentially, they are saying that boys who 'act like girls' are included, but girls who 'act like boys' aren't.

It's sexism on acid.

Send your child or don’t but don’t come stamping around causing aggro for this child based on your childs interpretation

When it comes to safeguarding for women and children I will come stamping around as you so eloquently put it. You may not understand or care the principles of safeguards. Fortunately many more of us do.

@Etorih

They are not "just as likely" to be a boy. What percentage of kids in that young age group do you imagine is made up of trans girls? It's daft (and needless) to make assumptions either way based on one kid meeting another, once.

Don't be silly. There's trans kids in many schools now. There's at least two transgirls in my daughter's year alongside the hugely popular non binary and transboy status.
A transgirl is likely to want to go to the guides. And they are accepted into the guides. If the ops daughter is able to identify boys in the rest of her life what makes you think she can't in this space as well.
The gaslighting from some people with nefarious reasons is appalling. Shameful. Just stop.

How dare you?. I was not denying the existence of trans people in schools or any other section of society. Merely pointing out that there are many more cis girls than trans girls. There are also boys, who may be volunteering (eg for d of e) or attending with a leader. It's entirely possible that this poor child who is being judged by strangers on the internet is trans but it is not the only possible explanation and as I said in both my comments, it is too soon and totally unnecessary for OP to be expecting a conclusive answer.

Some of the comments are weird. Its normal for very young children to believe 'short hair = boy, long hair = girl' because they haven't met enough people to learn about nuance.
But as we grow older we become very good at telling the sex of the vast majority of other people.

Telling your children they are mistaken about the sex of a person (especially one you have never met) is a red flag for safeguarding. If they ever need to describe an incident, they need to be able to use plain English without other people policing their use of language.

How dare you?

Rude. And deliberately missing the point. Also the majority of girls do not identify as cis. This is adult politics.

Obviously there are more girls than transgirls. And as there now lots of transgirls in schools it stands to reason that they would be attracted to the guides. Obviously. To deny this seems a little transpohobic to me.

This is why unfortunately I won't be sending mine to guides, like I had previously always envisioned. It isn't single sex now but single gender. (Gender is good old fashioned sexist stereotypes!)

Oh and before you accuse me of anything again, i mean, it's unnecessary just now, on the basis that OP states she has no concerns about her daughter being in a mixed sex environment . It becomes an issue in certain situations (eg residentials) but things are likely to be clearer by the time the daughter has been to Guides more than just once.

How dare you?. I was not denying the existence of trans people in schools or any other section of society. Merely pointing out that there are many more cis girls than trans girls. There are also boys, who may be volunteering (eg for d of e) or attending with a leader. It's entirely possible that this poor child who is being judged by strangers on the internet is trans but it is not the only possible explanation and as I said in both my comments, it is too soon and totally unnecessary for OP to be expecting a conclusive answer.

It's interesting that you think girls being able to identify the opposite sex is judging them.

That's for the rest, the OP is speculating and asking for advice. She hasn't done anything. She hasn't even questioned her daughter. The 'poor child' in question knows nothing about it.

And probably never will. If they do turn out to be male, the OP can do nothing about it, other than withdraw her daughter.

*As for the rest

I don't think anyone has said to the OP to tell her dd she is mistaken. If this was a boy or a transgirl my dd it wouldn't bother me for day to day guides. I might feel a bit odd about residentials. But guides have made their stance clear so if you sign up for guides you accept that there might be trans people there.

Girl Guiding is indeed for girls - but the movement has caved to activists and recognises as girls anyone who says they are a girl. The same for leaders. If someone identifies as a woman, they can volunteer as a leader, no questions asked about sex.

It's no good OP asking the leader because they are not allowed to tell other parents anything about the sex of any child in the pack/company. Not even if the whole group is going on a residential.

And if a child innocently questions the sex of another child or a leader, as in "Is X a boy or a girl?" all hell breaks loose.

Ugh, I’m remembering why I never suggested guides to my dds. What a mess they are.

@Etorih

How dare you?

Rude. And deliberately missing the point. Also the majority of girls do not identify as cis. This is adult politics.

Obviously there are more girls than transgirls. And as there now lots of transgirls in schools it stands to reason that they would be attracted to the guides. Obviously. To deny this seems a little transpohobic to me.

Rude?? You called me silly, shameful and nefarious so don't start on calling me rude for not accepting that. And transphobic? WTF?

Once again, as I have made very plain, I am not denying the existence of trans girls in schools or Guides. At all. I never said such a thing. I merely pointed out that statistically a kid that another kid meets in an all girl setting is not "more likely" to be a boy.

Don't @ me again, you're ridiculous, and flying off the handle about the existence of some poor kid nobody knows anything about strikes me as a lot more transphobic than pointing out a bit of maths and saying it doesn't really matter anyway.