AIBU to think naked males shouldn’t be in the women only section of a spa?

[HermioneWeasley]

A different case from Wi Spa in LA. A naked male got into the hot tub with a woman and her 6 year old daughter.

Can those of you who think this is fine, and trans people are an a oppressed minority please explain to me why this is ok, and how we safeguard women and girls from the predators that will take advantage? Please, someone who endorses this please explain why it seems fine to you, because I just cannot see it.

I don't want to see a penis in a female only space. I don't care if they were born with it or what they call it or if it has been fashioned out of skin from other parts of the body I don't want to see it

I doubt there are many trans men pulling this shit though

Well the ones convincing enough to sit down naked in a spa next to a woman and not be noticed is not the problem is it? This was the point the GRA started from

Indeed. It was designed to protect transexuals. Now everyone under the gender umbrella thinks it should apply to them. And it doesn't.

So what would be a proper amount?

A little bit? A tut and an eye roll?
Quite a bit? A tut, an eye roll, working up to Saying Something?
A lot? Tut, eye roll, Saying Something, a letter to the Times and our MP?

We’re doing it wrong, aren’t we. Oh dear.

We should perhaps retreat to behind our fan when we tut and eye roll though? And only use the feminine stationery (as per that twitter person wanting hints on being more womanly) when we write our letters.

@Etorih

Well the ones convincing enough to sit down naked in a spa next to a woman and not be noticed is not the problem is it? This was the point the GRA started from

Indeed. It was designed to protect transexuals. Now everyone under the gender umbrella thinks it should apply to them. And it doesn't.

And the root problem is exactly the same regardless of degree of transition:

An absolute failure to be able to treat female people with basic respect and acceptance of boundaries.

This is why we have always had enforced sex based rights; because many male people won't fucking allow women to have peace or boundaries or to say no or to have anything at all unless forced to by law. It's been demonstrated. It's been bloody destruction tested.

But if they do, so what? It's hardly some kind of gotcha
Quite. These, shall I say rare, trans women who paa, even naked, won't be flaunting adult male genitalia at little girls because theirs will have been chopped off surgically removed, so they are irrelevant to this discussion.

You only notice TW who were not given help or didn't have the opportunities to transition early
Heroic attempt at suggesting one form of child abuse might be prevented by sanctioning another duly noted, though

@Etorih

Regardless, I was trying to understand why a trans man's penis was ok, nobody has an answer, that's fine. The lack of answer is an answer in itself.

Transmen don't have penises.

Which was the answer given.

redapple

Exactly.

I cannot seriously believe anyone is arguing that a transman's penis (rare in itself, many don't have this extremely risky surgery) is comparable to a male penis in the affect on women and potential to cause harm.

Do they know nothing about the statistics for violent and sexual crime (90% plus perpetrated by males) or the difference in physiology between the sexes (males are stronger, women can be impregnated)?

It is like comparing a water pistol with a gun.

That said, going into a room full of people and suddenly pulling out a water pistol could initially cause terror (and potentially get you shot if you were a black person but that belongs on a thread about structural racism where no doubt similarly disingenuous arguments would pop up). It could be considered funny at eg a stag do and highly insensitive at eg a trauma survivors group.

I'd argue that a transman post sex reassignment surgery ought to really think carefully before exposing their penis in a women's only spa and that there's nothing unreasonable about this.

In day to day life I probably wouldn't pay attention to trans women and men. We have also been conditioned to notice and not really react, for example in the supermarket or wherever. However I would notice in an environment where I was feeling vulnerable. Such as a changing room.

I suspect a significant proportion of transwomen would not put themselves in that situation. (Due to dysphoria is it likely that they would really be getting a penis out? So I suspect the men who are abusing this are unlikely to be genuine trans people, but are more likely to be 'odd'.

Did we ever get an answer to what the 'right type of woman' was that could say 'it is not acceptable for a male to be naked and expose their genitals to my 6 year old daughter in the spa'?

Because we have had at least two people state 'I gave up on the video when she said she went nude with her daughter to be "culturally with it" because that's what Koreans do. meant they totally discredited the person who made the statement.

We have seen two other threads similar discrediting. One person told us it was more egregious than the male exposing their genitals that the woman took video footage last week that caught others while they were in the reception area of the spa. Where they had no expectation of being naked by the way.

We have seen another person on another thread declare that the woman who took the video last week was a Christian and therefore was clearly coming to the spa to deliberately force this incident. And that her voice should be ignored because she had very conservative Christian beliefs about other aspects of life that gravely offended that poster.

So, yet more ad hominem attacks that distract and deflect from the actual issue.

Who is the 'right type of woman' that could say 'it is not acceptable for a male to be naked and expose their genitals to my 6 year old daughter in the spa' and be considered valid to voice this complaint?

An absolute failure to be able to treat female people with basic respect and acceptance of boundaries

💯

Who is the 'right type of woman' that could say 'it is not acceptable for a male to be naked and expose their genitals to my 6 year old daughter in the spa' and be considered valid to voice this complaint?

I don't think there is one. The only right type of woman are those who welcome cock into women's spaces. That's it.

And no, naked makes should not be in the women's section of a spa, or anywhere else that is women only space.

All women are equal but transwomen are more equal than others. Is what it feels like

An absolute failure to be able to treat female people with basic respect and acceptance of boundaries.

Exactly.

Knowing that females and children have boundaries, who would attempt to cross those boundaries unless they had no respect for those females or children?

And we are constantly told that these people would simply continue to use the facilities anyway if a sign was put up saying it was a single sex space.

I have thought about this a lot.

I am very uncomfortable with my body, have never liked it, have always been fat, never felt attractive and I've never felt comfortable with my nudity although am comfortable at home with my husband and daughter.

As a result of this, as a 37 yr old woman, the only male person who has ever seen me naked is my husband who I met when I was 16.

I was incredibly tempted by a home, unassisted birth and probably would have gone that route if I hadn't ended up with GD, the main driver behind that was that I didn't want a male nurse, midwife or doctor and am not allowed to insist on a female bodied healthcare provider as that could be seen as transphobic.

I hated being in hospital overnight with DD as there were male family members wandering freely around the wards and several times the nurses pulled open the curtains while I was trying to breastfeed so I ended up being seen topless by random men.

While I am unlikely to ever choose to go to a nude spa I can absolutely understand the horror and violation that women and girls would feel if they had made themselves so vulnerable on the basis that they would only be exposed to other female bodied people and were instead exposed to a male bodied person seeing them naked and being naked himself.

And we are constantly told that these people would simply continue to use the facilities anyway if a sign was put up saying it was a single sex space.

Weird behaviour isn't it. Do these people not have mother's / daughters/ sisters. Would they not care if a male decided to expose their cock to them. Or worse. It's like the antifa type male allies who do not give a shit about the harm to women and girls. And they're happy to attack any women who might protest about cock in their changing rooms. Utterly bizarre. This certainly is a man's rights movement.

Did we ever get an answer to what the 'right type of woman' was that could say 'it is not acceptable for a male to be naked and expose their genitals to my 6 year old daughter in the spa'?

From what I understand there is no right type of woman. There's always some way to discredit or shut down women.

Let's be very clear.

If you think that the women so far are the wrong kind of victim, and they don't count, you are allying with this point of view.

Content warning: extreme misogyny and genetal creepiness

twitter.com/claire88424030/status/1411984005201813505?s=19

I would say that transmen with pseudo male genitalia should be in male spaces. They have chosen to transition and commit to that life so they should no longer be permitted in female spaces.

Transwomen may well, in theory, be permitted to do the same and have access to female spaces. Again if they fully transition.

What we see happening again and again is intact men self-identifying as women and waltzing into women's spaces and causing distress. The same is not happening to the same extent with regards to transmen in male spaces and so this is like comparing apples and oranges quite frankly (although I do not some cases of pre-op transmen taking the piss and entering gay saunas where gay men are rightly outraged).

On top of that we have to bear in mind that the statistics show that transwomen are the section of the population more likely to harass, intimidate and sexually assault women. Being that they are male (!) Transmen don't pose this risk to men in male spaces.

That is crucial to take into account. I am sick of transwomen and transmen being compared. It is not the same.

It bears repeating:

Transmen do not pose a risk to men in the way that transwomen pose a risk to women.

Transmen should be in male spaces if they are committing to be men, otherwise it makes a mockery of the point of transitioning.

Transwomen, could in theory have the same right but to women's spaces if the GRA wasn't made an absolute mockery of. We have to seriously tighten up the pathway to a GRC, revoke the certificate from those people who don't abide by the contract, and stop the tide of self-ID.

If these things can happen I'll entertain the question of allowing the vanishingly small minority of committed transwomen into female spaces. If we continue to head down the path of self-identification and affording men the classification "woman" when they've done fuck all but put on some makeup and heels, then no they can't access women's spaces.

Not only would I feel vulnerable being naked if a naked man entered a women’s only space, I would also (this feels crucial) feel that I was unwillingly being part of their sexual fantasy of transgressing and upsetting women. You don’t consent to that merely by going to a spa, or gym, or swimming pool, or clothes shop changing room.

hot tubs are basically Sous Vide for genitals, yuck, why would anyone get in one with strangers

Yanbu for a women's only section but the spa could save themselves heaps of issues buy simply copying Germany, everyone in together, no clothing, saves so much hassle. And never had any issues at all

f these things can happen I'll entertain the question of allowing the vanishingly small minority of committed transwomen into female spaces.

I understand and appreciate what you're saying, but other female people's consent isn't yours to give. There are female people who, if any male person is present regardless of degree of transition, can no longer access that female space due to disabilities, trauma, faith, culture, a need for privacy and dignity among other reasons. Those women have a right to access public life too.

And as has been repeatedly shown, no gatekeeping is possible. The GRA WAS this compromise, it was this attempt to allow some male people to have this option. It's been demonstrated past all doubt that 'some' means 'all', gatekeeping is impossible, and too many male people regardless of degree of transition are not able to use female spaces with respect for female people and their boundaries.

The answer is, as with everything, a third option must be provided. Everyone has the option of their sex based provision, or the mixed sex provision. If services want to add specific inclusive women/inclusive men/NB/anything else sessions, brilliant. Diversify, meet the needs. But female people needing female only spaces get their needs met too.

I'll just leave this here...

@Redapplewreath

I agree that I cannot give consent for others. This is simply my personal line in the sand. I only draw this conclusion from having spent time around transwomen who I would have no clue were biologically male.

For the sake of a tiny minority of people who I don't think are a threat, I think if we got this right there would be the rarest of occasions of transwomen in female spaces and people would be none the wiser.

I think society has buggered it up big time and the issues we have now are because of self-ID. Self-ID can be policed. We have the ability to stamp it out if we stand up to it now. In all honesty, I don't see how a minuscule, and I mean miniscule, population of genuine transwomen can be policed in such a manner. If we'd got this right as a society from the get-go, I doubt we'd need to think on it this much.

We've let too much slide. That's why we're in the mess we're in.