AIBU to think naked males shouldn’t be in the women only section of a spa?

[HermioneWeasley]

A different case from Wi Spa in LA. A naked male got into the hot tub with a woman and her 6 year old daughter.

Can those of you who think this is fine, and trans people are an a oppressed minority please explain to me why this is ok, and how we safeguard women and girls from the predators that will take advantage? Please, someone who endorses this please explain why it seems fine to you, because I just cannot see it.

WOBOHWF! leaving a NAMALT and a WDIT in their wake and a whole load of women wondering why it’s so important not to discuss actual male bodied person behaviour in favour of entirely theoretical female bodied person behaviour which probably wouldn’t be ok either had it ever happened which it has not and if it had was not the topic of this thread anyway.

I guess if your belief system rests on events like the one Op highlights being impossible, then that’s the only way you can go.

To me there are 3 things here; thing 1 is that a person who goes into the opposite sex side naked knows they are transgressing social norms and making people uncomfortable, they just don’t care. That makes me suspect there’s some kind of power trip going on.

Secondly, not only do I not want to look at the genitalia of a man I don’t know, especially when I’m naked, I do not want them looking at me. The women in the spa did not consent to them or their female child being seen naked.

Thirdly the poster who said men in women’s areas is the same as women working in non-traditional roles (or whatever that odd argument was): how the fuck is a woman at work the same as a man waving his willy about? Seriously? One is trying to earn a living (clothed) and the other is a flasher.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Oh the utter hypocrisy and thinly veiled insults because I'm asking questions on here are so typical.

I wasn't ignoring abuse.

I also am not stupid enough to get my news from YouTube and whip myself into a frenzy about it.

Regardless, I was trying to understand why a trans man's penis was ok, nobody has an answer, that's fine. The lack of answer is an answer in itself.

Enjoy winding each other up now

You have had several answers.

I just wonder how that is squared, not so much from a fear of violence I understand the difference there but more from still having his bits and pieces on display.

I don't think a transman should have their 'penis' on display in a women's and girls spa. It's a case of covering up as they are obviously female, using mixed sex or using the men's.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

In this case, there was a perfectly viable section for this guest and their friends. The MIXED SEX section.

Do you still think it was okay? We’re not asking if it was ideal.

Do you think it’s okay for a six-year-old girl to be exposed to a bio man’s penis? Why can’t they go to the mixed sex section, which seems the ideal solution here.

@Imasoulman

I absolutely agree, no way should any intact male be in a female changing room.

I'm curious though. If it is a fact that one can't change sex, then is it acceptable for a transman who has had top and extensive bottom surgery to be in a female changing room?
He is still female even though he has a constructed penis and faux testicles.

This has also been answered several times in the thread.

Would it not be useful at this point to ask what can be done about this problem? We need to ensure that we don't have this in the UK, & where it may have happened (I've seen eyewitness reports of naked males in female changing rooms at sports centres in the UK & elsewhere), we need to get the law tightened up so that it doesn't happen again.

What can American women do? US laws seem to vary state by state - is that a correct interpretation? Can anyone knowledgeable about this give a quick rundown of what's happened in America, wrt to Biden?

@Helleofabore

whatthejiggeries

And what of females who can still tell that a male without a penis is still a male and is something to be worried about? ie. probably most of the females who would see a person walking around regardless of the amount of feminisation surgery they have had.

You only notice TW who were not given help or didn't have the opportunities to transition early.
Sorry but the convincing ones are walking amongst you and you will never know the difference!

So glad this thread was moved so I can hide the whole section and leave you all to your echo chamber.

The OP intended to canvass a wider range of posters, you're the one who wants the echo chamber. I'm not sure why you feel the site should revolve around which threads you wish to see?

@Sophoclesthefox

WOBOHWF! leaving a NAMALT and a WDIT in their wake and a whole load of women wondering why it’s so important not to discuss actual male bodied person behaviour in favour of entirely theoretical female bodied person behaviour which probably wouldn’t be ok either had it ever happened which it has not and if it had was not the topic of this thread anyway.

I guess if your belief system rests on events like the one Op highlights being impossible, then that’s the only way you can go.

Quite.

(What does WOBOHWF mean?)

Determined not to get any more wound up today.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

So glad this thread was moved so I can hide the whole section and leave you all to your echo chamber.

The OP intended to canvass a wider range of posters, you're the one who wants the echo chamber. I'm not sure why you feel the site should revolve around which threads you wish to see?

Quite.

With One Bound Our Hero Was Free, ifiwere

^^ Sorry, posted in wrong thread! Wind me up on here all you like :)

but a TM even with the best surgery available is still a woman !!
So should infact still be using female changing rooms.

And from the conversations I have seen over twitter and other platforms, they understand the distress their presence can cause women and children who have been traumatised by those who mistake them for males.

If their sculpted body parts made to replicate a penis will cause a sex abuse victim or a rape survivor distress, why would another female wish to do this.

Once exposed to testosterone of that level that makes those irreversible changes to a body regardless of if it is male or female, why would anyone seek to access a space that will cause distress to victims of abuse in this way?

What can American women do? US laws seem to vary state by state - is that a correct interpretation? Can anyone knowledgeable about this give a quick rundown of what's happened in America, wrt to Biden?

Yes, it’s state by state so that’s why you see this nonsense in California and not, say, Florida.

Although federal judges can block things that states do, and then they’ll need to go through that route and could be taken up by the Supreme Court. It’s supposedly more conservative, but we don’t know much about how the new justices would handle these cases.

Obviously Democrats and Biden are all for this kind of stuff.

You only notice TW who were not given help or didn't have the opportunities to transition early.
Sorry but the convincing ones are walking amongst you and you will never know

Doubt there's many walking amongst us that go unnoticed. Certainly not white males anyway. Hardly any. But if they do, so what? It's hardly some kind of gotcha.

soulman

Sorry, but I don't buy that. I've heard it so many times & I still don't believe it, for many reasons including listening to transsexuals who've been living that way for decades, who speak about their reactions to getting read by women.

I know it's impossible for you to prove it, so a discussion isn't going to get us anywhere, but I don't want your statement to sit as a final word on the topic. Opinion be divided.

So glad this thread was moved so I can hide the whole section and leave you all to your echo chamber.

And this, @mnhq is another example of why it’s so important not to move threads like his,

I’m also curious about what the correct amount of outrage is that women ought to feel about the removal of our spaces to the extent that we can expect to see penis hither and yon in single sex environments. Clearly the reaction here and on Twitter from some people (who seem reluctant to state their actual position on the ins and outs of little girls in close proximity to strange adult penis) is that this is an excessive amount of outrage we are showing.

So what would be a proper amount?

A little bit? A tut and an eye roll?
Quite a bit? A tut, an eye roll, working up to Saying Something?
A lot? Tut, eye roll, Saying Something, a letter to the Times and our MP?

We’re doing it wrong, aren’t we. Oh dear.

Thank you fox !

fox didn't someone once famously say that if a woman was bothered by a man in a private space, all she had to do was tut loudly & that would solve the problem?

I know who I think it was, but as he's quite famous, I'd better not say.

Yes. It's a good point and I think @Helleofabore has it. If a 'penis' is so close to resembling an actual penis, the ladies section is not the right place for it, but all the rhetoric suggests that it's a complete irrelevancy as transmen don't behave this way. It was just a way to deflect the convo away from what was really happening here.

I'm afraid I agree with @ifIwerenotanandroid too. I have read and met far too many accounts of TW who think they pass beautifully, and really, really do not, especially as they age, as well as those who know full well they get clocked despite extensive, expensive feminisation. It isn't just genitalia or ffs.

the convincing ones are walking amongst you

Well the ones convincing enough to sit down naked in a spa next to a woman and not be noticed is not the problem is it? This was the point the GRA started from. It's gone totally FUBAR because of the non transitioned very obviously biologically male people who want the same privilege, and see the requirement to be unnoticably 'passing' as offensive and unfair. And there's no way to separate the one group from the other, and it's been demonstrated that to allow what was, at first, intended to be a very tiny number of fully surgically transitioned people with severe dysphoria, has been a chink in the door that people born male are utterly determined to force open to its widest extent.

Which is why female people have been driven to saying no. No male. Regardless of degree of transition, regardless of 'passing', none at all. Female people have rights too.

You only notice TW who were not given help or didn't have the opportunities to transition early.
Sorry but the convincing ones are walking amongst you and you will never know the difference!

I think we have had this discussion before. It certainly feels like it has happened before.

There will be something that causes a second glance, particularly from me who has sight issues and my brain does more compiling than me simply looking. Gait is a factor of hip placement and tends to be a give away. But there are others factors. I actually rarely look closely at faces or clothing.

And frankly, unless I am needing to be aware of my surroundings, I probably wouldn't pick it up because I couldn't tell you who I passed or sat across from on the bus unless I was on the alert at the best of times. So, you are right. I probably wouldn't notice, because I wouldn't notice who anyone was unless I needed to anyway. And even if I did notice, I wouldn't care unless it was something I needed to notice.

I am probably very likely to tell if I was in a communal space in a state of undress though.

Isn't it interesting how many of the just want to hide all threads and not have to read them follow these threads around the board and post even here in the dark cupboard section to moan about them.

A lot of energy and effort expended on something you claim you can't be arsed with, most of us just click hide and move on with our lives.