Employee using pronouns. Help!

[OfNobody]

Hi all,

A friend of mine has just taken on a new recruit and he's just realised that she uses pronouns after her name on her email signature.

He'd love for her not to do that because he's GC himself (and has a very traditional client base) but can he ask her to stop? Is that in itself discrimination?

Would love to advise him but generally, all the work issues I see around this run in the opposite direction (employers asking employees for pronouns).

Any experience of this, or any insight into how he can politely request that she drop the pronouns without ending up on the front cover of The Guardian?

From what he said, she doesn't sound like a massive raging handmaiden. She's just fresh out of uni and obviously thinks this is the way to go.

@Etorih

Either you didn't read my post properly, or you're trying to backtrack because you've realised that your assertion that no one uses pronouns in everyday speech, except at school, was ridiculous.

I'm talking about refering to people directly. The whole op is about using pronouns in emails. Theres no need to use pronouns in emails because we don't tend to use them to address people directly using them anymore. Apart from at school. The usage of she / her / he / him in every day language is not necessary information to give in an email. Because when I use those terms I'm talking about the person not to the person. So it hardly matters. And the policing of my language in a company email, when the person is not even there, is not welcome or required. This follows on from your point about using Miss / Mrs Smith. People don't speak like this anymore. Apart from at school.

Now how far have you got with your counting?

All I can say is that your emails must be very tedious to read.

'Hi John

I spoke to Jane today about Jane's absence. Jane told me Jane had seen Jane's doctor, and Jane had been prescribed some medication. Jane will call with an update next Tuesday after Jane has had Jane's follow-up appointment with Jane's doctor. Jane can't give an exact time as Jane's medication makes Jane drowsy and Jane wants to call when Jane feels up to it.

Kind regards

Jill

“Hi John

I spoke to Jane today about Jane's absence. Jane told me Jane had seen Jane's doctor, and Jane had been prescribed some medication. Jane will call with an update next Tuesday after Jane has had Jane's follow-up appointment with Jane's doctor. Jane can't give an exact time as Jane's medication makes Jane drowsy and Jane wants to call when Jane feels up to it.

Kind regards

Jill”

So you have a job where you need to divulge lots of information information about Jane’s health, but the only way you could establish that Jane might not wish to be referred to as ‘she’ is an email sign off?

That would be very odd, and perhaps call into question your professional abilities.

I’m torn on this one, if it’s a religious, traditional company where this won’t be welcomed then I would be worried about alienating clients.

The whole thing is stupid anyway unless she has a unisex name like Sam or Alex, then I can see a usefulness in it but if she’s got a very female name anyway then I’d probably think it was a bit odd because obviously Jennifer or Susan will be she/her but it doesn’t mean they were born female, they could’ve changed their name.

Does anyone need a guide to use the correct pronouns in English for a woman? And to make a special thing about it?

I think I was been way too unassuming in my life. That is Cailleach, with a capital letter C, then a small xyzzy. To top it off the first number of the decimal system (or maybe the second if 0 counts, sic). ad nauseam.

Ahh, so I'm speaking to John directly about Jane. I didn't need to use a pronoun for John as I'm speaking to him directly. I can call him John and I don't need to address him as Mr / him / he. John thus has no need to tell me his pronouns. Although it's clear what they are. As John has a male name. Therefore when talking about him (as I am to you) I can use male pronouns.

For Jane, who is not there, I am speaking about her, I can easily guess what Jane's pronouns are. She didn't need to tell me. Because she has a female name. Easy innit.

so you have a job where you need to divulge lots of information information about Jane’s health, but the only way you could establish that Jane might not wish to be referred to as ‘she’ is an email sign off

My example was simply to illustrate that the previous poster's comment:

Theres no need to use pronouns in emails because we don't tend to use them to address people directly using them anymore. Apart from at school. The usage of she / her / he / him in every day language is not necessary information to give in an email

is nonsense.

We have a scheme at my work where we get to demonstrate what fantastic allies we are for various different groups of people. In order to be an ally, you read a pledge, you sign to say you support the pledge and then you get a badge to add onto your email signature. Some of these badges include hyper links like 'why pronouns matter' just in case the recipient is unsure. You can collect badges like a toddler loading up their sticker chart until your email looks like the fridge of a preschooler. These are important matters and we're encouraged to do our bit to make our workplace inclusive.

Alas I have no badges because I'm not into virtue signalling meaningless wokery. Fortunately when I raised this with the new big boss and they concur that it is nonsense, so the brightly coloured badges of bullshit will be disappearing.

Although yes merrymouse that is a fair point too.

@Etorih

Ahh, so I'm speaking to John directly about Jane. I didn't need to use a pronoun for John as I'm speaking to him directly. I can call him John and I don't need to address him as Mr / him / he. John thus has no need to tell me his pronouns. Although it's clear what they are. As John has a male name. Therefore when talking about him (as I am to you) I can use male pronouns.

For Jane, who is not there, I am speaking about her, I can easily guess what Jane's pronouns are. She didn't need to tell me. Because she has a female name. Easy innit.

You can always just use 'they' if you really don't know anyway - eg Alex or Sam. There's really no need to police how people talk about you when you're not there!

Control freakery

For Jane, who is not there, I am speaking about her, I can easily guess what Jane's pronouns are. She didn't need to tell me. Because she has a female name. Easy innit.

So you admit now that it is necessary for 'grown-ups' to use pronouns in emails sometimes? I'm glad we've cleared that up.

FWIW the fictional Jane may be non-binary and prefer they/them as pronouns.

is nonsense.

What is nonsense is your absolute determination to completely miss the point. It does seem to be a feature of those who support gender ideology. Well it has to be doesn't it. It doesn't work otherwise.

Except it wasn’t nonsense because as explained Jane wasn’t present. Most of the time you can correctly assume which pronouns to use in somebody’s absence, and if you make a mistake you just correct yourself. People have always done this. It isn’t a big deal.

On the other hand suggesting that everyone should actively declare a gender is a big deal and is the opposite of inclusive.

FWIW the fictional Jane may be non-binary and prefer they/them as pronouns.

Jane doesn't get to police other people's language though does she.

FWIW the fictional Jane may be non-binary and prefer they/them as pronouns.

But how would she know if she's not part of the conversation?

@Etorih

is nonsense.

What is nonsense is your absolute determination to completely miss the point. It does seem to be a feature of those who support gender ideology. Well it has to be doesn't it. It doesn't work otherwise.

No, what's nonsense is:

'Grown ups don't use pronouns in everyday speech'
'It's not necessary to use pronouns in emails'

You're coming out with wilder and wilder assertions in your efforts to demonstrate that adding pronouns to an email signature is a bad idea.

In fact, what you've succeeding in doing is showing that it's often a very good idea.

I think the employee needs to think carefully if this is the right company for her.
It sounds like it's probably not.
I know belief is a protected characteristic (is that the right phrase?) but I way prefer to work for companies whose views align with my own. Much easier said that done I know.

FWIW the fictional Jane may be non-binary and prefer they/them as pronouns.

Well let’s hope they have a better way of communicating that than through an email sign off.

Jane may also be allergic to peanuts and observe Shabbat. Both of these things are of more practical relevance than what somebody calls them in their absence, but neither need to be declared in an email signature.

@Siblingquandary

FWIW the fictional Jane may be non-binary and prefer they/them as pronouns.

But how would she know if she's not part of the conversation?

If it's a HR-related email about her absence, it will go on her file, which she'd be entitled under GDPR to access at any time. Where I work, a colleague's absence file is freely available to that colleague without any formal request being necessary.

Sometimes you will absolutely need to use the persons sex to describe them and not how they feel about their place in the universe.

Like when you are mugged - do you genuinely consider carefully the muggers potential gender id when describing them to the police?

@SuperLoudPoppingAction

I think all new starts should have someone (office manager or administrator or whoever) show them the house style for email signatures to ensure consistency and a professional look. No need to go into the politics of it, I wouldn't have thought.

Yes. Tell him to sweep it up into a quick briefing session of whatever miscellany of “new starter” odds and bobs remain outstanding.

@Arbadacarba

It's not necessary to use pronouns to refer to someone directly

If you're referring to someone else who isn't there then it doesn't matter if the pronoun is 'wrong' as they won't know about it will they?

If it's a HR-related email about her absence, it will go on her file, which she'd be entitled under GDPR to access at any time. Where I work, a colleague's absence file is freely available to that colleague without any formal request being necessary.

Assuming HR aren’t already aware of Jane’s preferences, it would then be possible to correct them.

Yup. Actually, explicitly telling the freshly-graduated new starter what the culture is and what we don't do at work, rather than waiting for them to screw up, is a kind and welcoming thing to do.

You’d be tying yourself in knots of you say had several employees with the same name a I worked in a place where there was a Jo, and a Joe, the bosses son was a Joe and another colleague was married to a Joe and had a sister called Joe.

On a normal day it could get confusing. But in a fictional office you could easily have an Ali(son) and and Ali(stair).

If you're referring to someone else who isn't there then it doesn't matter if the pronoun is 'wrong' as they won't know about it will they?

Anyone is entitled to request copies of documentation held about them by their employer. In the situation of absence, it's very common for colleagues to review their own records, particularly if they find themselves in an absence management process.