Employee using pronouns. Help!

[OfNobody]

Hi all,

A friend of mine has just taken on a new recruit and he's just realised that she uses pronouns after her name on her email signature.

He'd love for her not to do that because he's GC himself (and has a very traditional client base) but can he ask her to stop? Is that in itself discrimination?

Would love to advise him but generally, all the work issues I see around this run in the opposite direction (employers asking employees for pronouns).

Any experience of this, or any insight into how he can politely request that she drop the pronouns without ending up on the front cover of The Guardian?

From what he said, she doesn't sound like a massive raging handmaiden. She's just fresh out of uni and obviously thinks this is the way to go.

I think it would be tricky to ask any employee not to add pronouns to email. Don't get me wrong, I hate all this pronouns bullshit and I do judge people who put pronouns in their email signature, twitter bio, zoom name. I judge very harshly . I just don't know how you'd ask an employee not to do it.
Would it be wrong to say that a client had complained/queried it and use that as an excuse to suggest she stops doing it?

We have a standard team signature which keeps everything standard and non-political (with a small p). It’s a professional environment where pronouns, marital status, non-professional titles, allegiances to particular religions or political leanings are superfluous to requirements.

pronouns are used in everyday speech to refer to people

But only usually people who aren't there, so does it really matter if they're wrong? If I accidentally misgender someone who I've never met and will never know about it, is it really a problem?

This makes me go hmmm.

I’ve never done this, but also work in a huge international company where you’re encouraged to bring your whole self to work. Some people use pronouns, others don’t. It shows that you’re an ally.

It’s not hurting anyone, it’s showing support for your colleagues.

If I worked in a company where this was not the case, like some PP saying use standard template, etc. Well, not the company for me, but variety is the spice of life.

My brother says he's non binary but since he's never going to hear me speak about him when he's not around I I don't think it matters what I use.
Everyone in the family uses him/he when we mention him because to us that's what he is.
If there was ever a reason to use pronouns for him in front of him I would use his preferred pronouns but since we have very little to do with eachother I doubt it will ever arise.

Hit post too soon. To get to round this issue OP your friend could quite easily say that the company policy on individual signatures will be the following template.

It’s not hurting anyone, it’s showing support for your colleagues.

It's hurting women: legalfeminist.org.uk/2020/07/19/pronouns-compulsion-and-controversy/

I have never added Miss/Mrs to my name at work either. My marital status has zero bearing on my work. As does my gender identity or lack thereof.
I'm not interested in anybody else's either!
I have occasionally been asked at work if I was Miss or Mrs and have refused to answer. I think I turned it round and asked why it was relevant? Just use my name.

@MaMelon

We have a standard team signature which keeps everything standard and non-political (with a small p). It’s a professional environment where pronouns, marital status, non-professional titles, allegiances to particular religions or political leanings are superfluous to requirements.

Yep. Titles piss me off a bit, almost always they are unnecessary. If you ask my title you're effectively asking my marital status. Which is irrelevant.

It’s not hurting anyone, it’s showing support for your colleagues.

It's hurting women. It's entrenching oppressive ideologies and sexist stereotypes.

It shows support for people who believe in gender. It does not show support for the vast majority of people who don't.

So the OP isn't a grown-up then - there are 11 pronouns in the OP?

I was talking in the context of addressing people in emails, as per the op.

But whilst you're about it, why don't you count them right through the thread. Keep yourself busy.

If she’s new and still on probation can he let her go, no reason necessary?

If he fusses about the pronouns directly he’s opening himself up to having his company destroyed when she goes on twitter and complains.

And how you would address people. A child may use Mr / Mrs to address a teacher directly. Adults don't tend to address eachother in this way directly.

@toffeebutterpopcorn

There’s no such thing as c**. Made up nonsense.

Agreed

@Etorih

And how you would address people. A child may use Mr / Mrs to address a teacher directly. Adults don't tend to address eachother in this way directly.

I work with Americans some of whom still use Sir and Ma’am for colleagues in a professional setting.

This is an interesting situation OP, I hope your friend has found the best way to handle it, lots of good advice here I think.

As a new team member it's quite a strange thing to do, when you're new you tend to follow the rules or templates set out for you, as you find your way and settle into the role, particularly as an external person she has made a very personal and political statement, in a sort of 'marking territory' way. Anyone who has researched the company before applying and securing the position would have an understanding of the clients it serves and whether it might be met negatively.

If I were your friend I would be a bit worried about this employee not being sensitive to this and not being self-aware enough to see how this could impact the people she is working with. I hope he doesn't come to regret his selection and the employee is an easy fit into the existing team.

I would prefer having a quiet word before a company-wide email reminder is sent out. It might be that she is just not that sensitive and hasn't thought it through. An all-employee email in a small team especially will create gossip as everyone will know who it refers to and she is new.

@Etorih

So the OP isn't a grown-up then - there are 11 pronouns in the OP?

I was talking in the context of addressing people in emails, as per the op.

But whilst you're about it, why don't you count them right through the thread. Keep yourself busy.

I said 'pronouns are used in everyday speech to refer to people'

You said: 'They really aren't. Apart from at school. Grown ups tend to use actual names.'

Either you didn't read my post properly, or you're trying to backtrack because you've realised that your assertion that no one uses pronouns in everyday speech, except at school, was ridiculous.

"cis female" is a political statement - I think it is entirely appropriate to ask employees not to include their political viewpoints in a corporate email signature. How one would go about doing that is another thing. I would also suggest a company template.

My fellow North of Englanders will most likely be smiling at the thought of Boyes (a shop) and the tannoy announcements asking for Mrs Smith to come to the checkout.

My work email is fully generated automatically it is

Afternoon Toffee
Bottle Washer *
Bottles.com

No deviation. Corporate, official looking but doesn't tell anyone much.

• Alas I am not even chief bottle washer.

At our work place we have a standardised signature that is auto generated.
No one is allowed to alter it......

Her pronouns in an email context would normally be “you”.

As it’s unnecessarily gendered and demanding, is a microaggression at the very least. Especially if it’s just her doing the bollocks.

Commonly used stateside also as a greeting to customers in fast food outlets and shops. There’s a whole slew of videos on YouTube where self-identified transwomen, presenting as men, have been cheerily greeted as ‘Sir’ and have gone nuclear-aggressive at the minimum wage workers who greeted them.

Either you didn't read my post properly, or you're trying to backtrack because you've realised that your assertion that no one uses pronouns in everyday speech, except at school, was ridiculous.

I'm talking about refering to people directly. The whole op is about using pronouns in emails. Theres no need to use pronouns in emails because we don't tend to use them to address people directly using them anymore. Apart from at school. The usage of she / her / he / him in every day language is not necessary information to give in an email. Because when I use those terms I'm talking about the person not to the person. So it hardly matters. And the policing of my language in a company email, when the person is not even there, is not welcome or required. This follows on from your point about using Miss / Mrs Smith. People don't speak like this anymore. Apart from at school.

Now how far have you got with your counting?

Yes, that's exactly how I felt in a meeting with this pronoun-displaying woman today, it was a microaggression. She was asserting her political views in a meeting that had absolutely nothing to do with gender identity, and this attitude spilled over as she proceeded to try to tell other more experienced people what they should and shouldn't be doing (no one was saying or doing anything in the least bit offensive, but she was ever so helpfully pre-empting us, because how could we with all our life experience possibly have her sage wisdom). What a prat.

Yes, that's exactly how I felt in a meeting with this pronoun-displaying woman today, it was a microaggression

It really is a micro agression.